Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Kesler · 01-20-2007, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The angels in the Bible were all male, and none had wings.

The idea that angels have wings is perhaps due to:
1) Conflation of angels and cherubim, the latter having wings (Exodus 25:20; 37:9; 1 Kings 6:27 et al). Seraphim also had wings (Isaiah 6:2,6).

2) Descriptions of angels flying (Gabriel, in Daniel 9:21 and an unnamed angel in Revelation 8:13).
:angel:

Weltall · 01-20-2007, 12:01 PM

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen necromancy on a thread dead this long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nightwyrm

Hot chicks with wings in skimpy clothing.

No no, you're thinking of Succubi. :Cheeky:

Now then, I'm not entirely certain what Angels are but I know that 42 of them can dance on the head of a pin.

Gorit Maqueda · 01-20-2007, 01:08 PM

In the same way God is a projection of our father, angels are a projection of our children, and devils a projection of our neighbour's children.

RAFH · 01-20-2007, 11:21 PM

Angels don't exist. They are as ridiculous and non-existent as the rest of the whole delusion.

Mycorec · 01-21-2007, 01:22 AM

Of course they don't exist, but it is certainly interesting to try to disinter the history of this particular delusion. Back in the days when I was an evangelical christian I can recall spending a whole week trying to work out what angelic beings were from the scattered resources in the old and new testament, rather as was done in the first post in this thread four years ago. The scholastic philosophers, as noted above, tried to work out how many could dance on the head of a pin, and this is often used as a metaphor for pointless speculation about non-existent entities. However billions of people today believe in such entities, notably christians, jews, muslims etc. Magical thinking is alive and well, sadly. So whence the notion of subsidiary spiritual beings doing the work of the high god, or alternatively of his adversary the devil, called in later hebrew writings a fallen angel- although apparently in the book of Job god's chief agent in charge of sting operations? As with the whole notion of heaven and hell and the judgement, I wonder if much of this comes out of the babylonian exile, where judaism became thoroughly syncretised with Zoroastrianism. Just my early morning thoughts but if any scholars are out there who can enlighten me about the origin of the angelic delusion I should be grateful for your learning.

spin · 01-21-2007, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

So you call them deities in order to avoid calling them gods?

Kind of like calling someone a robber in order to avoid calling him a thief.

Naa, naa. It's gotta be a bit more highfaluting-- y'know like physician is to doctor, or pleasure worker is to all those very unfriendly alternatives -- for some they're angels.

spin

spin · 01-21-2007, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaupoline

Angels see themselves as the Sons of God.

What was the sample size in this survey of yours?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaupoline

They interacted directly with humanity in an attempt to domesticate us toward what they believed was the greater good.

What exactly is/was your relationship with these... angels? How did they express their views, their intentions and their aims?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaupoline

In many ways them seem like what UFO-ologists claim to be aliens.

Psychologists would probably agree with you.

spin

spin · 01-21-2007, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The angels in the Bible were all male,

How do you sex an angel? And is there any money in it?

spin

spin · 01-21-2007, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

The idea that angels have wings is perhaps due to:
1) Conflation of angels and cherubim, the latter having wings (Exodus 25:20; 37:9; 1 Kings 6:27 et al). Seraphim also had wings (Isaiah 6:2,6).

2) Descriptions of angels flying (Gabriel, in Daniel 9:21 and an unnamed angel in Revelation 8:13).
:angel:

3) The winged figures in Greek and Roman iconography. (Just as the Ezekielian vision of creatures with four faces comes from Babylonian iconography.)

spin

John Kesler · 01-29-2007, 01:03 PM

Compare the wording between Matthew, Mark, and Luke:

Quote:

Mark 8:38
38 Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Matthew 16:27
27 "For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done.

Luke 9:26
26Those who are ashamed of me and of my words, of them the Son of Man will be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Quote:

Mark 13:26-27
26Then they will see 'the Son of Man coming in clouds' with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:27-28
27 Then they will see 'the Son of Man coming in a cloud' with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to take place, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." {No mention of angels}

Notice that in the first passage, Mark and Matthew say that the Son of Man will come with angels, while Luke says that he will come with the glory of angels, and in the second passage, Luke omits any reference to angels at all. See also Matthew 13:41 and 25:31, which also speak of angels being sent out, and which have no Lukan parallels. Does anyone have an idea why Luke would omit reference to angels being sent out with Jesus?

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01-20-2007, 01:08 PM	#23
Gorit Maqueda Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Valdebernardo Posts: 73	In the same way God is a projection of our father, angels are a projection of our children, and devils a projection of our neighbour's children.

01-20-2007, 11:21 PM	#24
RAFH Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Kahaluu, Hawaii Posts: 6,400	Angels don't exist. They are as ridiculous and non-existent as the rest of the whole delusion.

01-21-2007, 01:22 AM	#25
Mycorec New Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London UK Posts: 1	Of course they don't exist, but it is certainly interesting to try to disinter the history of this particular delusion. Back in the days when I was an evangelical christian I can recall spending a whole week trying to work out what angelic beings were from the scattered resources in the old and new testament, rather as was done in the first post in this thread four years ago. The scholastic philosophers, as noted above, tried to work out how many could dance on the head of a pin, and this is often used as a metaphor for pointless speculation about non-existent entities. However billions of people today believe in such entities, notably christians, jews, muslims etc. Magical thinking is alive and well, sadly. So whence the notion of subsidiary spiritual beings doing the work of the high god, or alternatively of his adversary the devil, called in later hebrew writings a fallen angel- although apparently in the book of Job god's chief agent in charge of sting operations? As with the whole notion of heaven and hell and the judgement, I wonder if much of this comes out of the babylonian exile, where judaism became thoroughly syncretised with Zoroastrianism. Just my early morning thoughts but if any scholars are out there who can enlighten me about the origin of the angelic delusion I should be grateful for your learning.

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