GakuseiDon

Reread Richard's comment again:

"During the Dark Ages (500-1000 A.D.) the Latin West largely forgot how to read Greek, and gradually threw away almost all its Greek books out of disinterest, making little attempt to remedy the loss by translating them into Latin. That was a conscious choice."

Here is Flynn's comment:

"The Latin West never lost its Greek heritage because it never had it to begin with. Most of it was never translated until the Christians, hearing that it was available in Toledo, swarmed there from every nation once the jihad had ebbed"

Richard has taken one line out of Flynn, and drawn a conclusion quite different to the point Flynn was actually making. It shows the dangers of quote-mining. I hope he doesn't do the same thing with James Hannam's book.

Potoooooooo

is James Hannam the name of the guy that used to post here under the name Bede?

GakuseiDon

Flynn's point was progress. If you read that part of Flynn's article from which Richard extracted his quote, you can see this. Flynn wrote:

Indeed, Roman technology in the late days of the Empire is not notably different from Roman technology in the late days of the Republic.

"The failure of Greece and Rome to increase productivity through innovation is as notorious as the inability of historians from Gibbon to the present to account for it."
-- Brian Stock, "Science, Technology, and Progress in the Early Middle Ages," in Science in the Middle Ages (Lindberg, ed.)

To conflate the existence of scientists with the existence of a spirit of scientific investigation is wrong, but this is something that I've seen Richard do before on this topic.

I'm not saying the point can't be argued, simply that the objection that Richard raises does not match the argument that Flynn is making. Flynn is referring to progress and innovation. (Actually, Flynn is quoting from: Brian Stock, "Science, Technology, and Progress in the Early Middle Ages," in Science in the Middle Ages.)

Toto

I just reread it, and I don't think Carrier was quote mining or distorting Flynn's words. What point do you think that Flynn was trying to make that Carrier missed?

Note that Carrier disputes many of the details of Flynn's claims, based on his PhD research; but he is not supporting the article that Flynn criticizes.

Toto

Yup. The same.

Toto

Er, there are no disembodied spirits of scientific investigation. There are only scientists who investigate things. :Cheeky:

The culture of the age was not one that glorified progress, but I don't see Carrier saying that.

GakuseiDon

Touche!

No, I don't see Carrier saying that either.

mountainman

Good point avi. I should perhaps have added that (IMO) much of this knowledge the Greeks obtained from Egypt, Egypt obtained from India. The Saravati River mentioned throughout the Vedas is now estimated to have dried up c.1900 BCE on account of its source being lost due to upheavals in the himalayan foothills. The Indus-Sarasvati civilisation which had previously used that river was forced to physically relocate prior to 2000 BCE.

A later second contact may have occurred directly between India and the Greeks around the time of Buddha, who is reported to have sent out emmissaries to the four directions -- the ideas of Pythagoras for example in medicine are very similar to Aruvedic claims, elements of nature, mathematics, the Indian "Arabic" numerals, the concept of ZERO and the philosophical / metaphysical / religious concept of NONDUALITY -- all these things appear distinctly Indian.

A third wave of Indian knowledge went westward in the recoil of Alexander the Great's conquest to the River Hypasus (and no further).


NO. The Roman supremacy in warfare did not automatically kill the knowledge of the Greek civilisation, since we are well aware that the Greek language and knowledge in many fields was held in high esteem by the Roman empire which was essentially still Greek in its culture. The army changed to be commanded by Romans, but these Romans did nothing to denigrate Greek culture or science until Constantine arrived on the scene in the 4th century.

The coins of the Roman emperors and the history of their sponsorship of the Greek temples, libraries and shrines is amply demonstrated from the beginning of the Roman empire until Diocletian. Constantine's "Christian Revolution" put a full stop to the Greeks, who were no longer regarded as Greeks but as Gentiles.

Addendum:

Asclepiads -- The title of Greek physicians in the Greek army;
continuing as *Greek* physicians in the Roman Army
not *Roman* physicians

This practice was continued under the Roman emperors.
However the physicans and their knowledge was Greek.
I think Carrier and his subject author(s) are in error when
referring to these physicans as "Romans".

The following from Google

Ancient Greek medicine as the foundation of contemporary medicineby V Kanellou - 2004 -

Homer's Iliad as physicians of the Greek army in the. Trojan War. ... as Asclepiads because they claimed to be the descendants of Asclepius. ...
www.springerlink.com/index/MMKV3KW83HW9VNT4.pdf - Similar

A History of Medicine: Greek medicine - Google Books Resultby Plinio Prioreschi - 1996 - Medical - 695 pages

... (Asclepiads) means literally “of the family of Aesculapius” and this suggests ...
the physicians of the Greek army

GakuseiDon

Flynn was responding to a point made by Walker on how "the Christians tried to destroy every pagan and scientific literature including the great libraries of the world." Flynn responded:

a) The Greek East never lost its heritage. It was preserved unbroken; and Byzantium deserves its proud title of "The World's Librarian."
b) The Latin West never lost its Latin heritage. Catalogs of private and monastic libraries that have come down to us list all the best known Roman writers.
c) The Latin West never lost its Greek heritage because it never had it to begin with. Most of it was never translated until the Christians, hearing that it was available in Toledo, swarmed there from every nation once the jihad had ebbed, eager to translate the Greek works. (These had been earlier translated by Syriac Christians in Syria and Iraq from Greek to Syriac to Arabic.)

Flynn was saying that the Latin West never lost its Latin heritage. Books usually only survived when the culture maintaining them was interested enough in copying them, down the centuries. But the Latin West were interested in Latin works, as can be seen by the catalogs of libraries from that period.

But Flynn said that the Latin West "never had a Greek heritage". He writes that they did have Greek writings in their libraries (Flynn gives Toledo, Spain, as an example), but they didn't appear to have been interested in them. It wasn't until "the jihad had ebbed" in Spain that Christians came from elsewhere, "eager to translate" them. (I've quoted the relevant pieces of text earlier in this thread.)

So in other words, the Greek texts were always there, but Flynn is saying that the Latin West never took them on as part of their heritage.

Richard takes Flynn's quote, "The Latin West never lost its Greek heritage because it never had it to begin with", and says this is wrong, because the Latin West had always had libraries with Greek treatises. Richard then goes on to write, "During the Dark Ages (500-1000 A.D.) the Latin West largely forgot how to read Greek, and gradually threw away almost all its Greek books out of disinterest, making little attempt to remedy the loss by translating them into Latin. That was a conscious choice."

Obviously Richard saw Flynn's comment "The Latin West never had a Greek heritage" and thought that Flynn meant that the Latin West never kept their Greek writings. But Flynn clearly specifies that they did (in Toledo, Spain, for example).

mountainman

This is utter nonsense GDon. The City of Constantine (Byzantium ) is just a recycle station for the cultural heritage that was looted from the City of Alexander and other eastern cities and sites. The Greek East was subject to Constantine's destruction of most ancient and highly revered temples. The contemporary literature of greatest academic of the Greek East - Porphyry - was subject to Constantine's edicts for its destruction by fire. The Christians thus burn the heritage of the Greek civilisation. Sopater, the Head of the Academy of Plato, was publically executed by Constantine. Hellenism was a 4th century heresy along with Platonism, Pythagoreanism, Stoicism, etc, etc. Constantine's Christians got rid of the Greek temples, and its priesthood and the "Sacred College of Pontifices" (ie: Greek priests) who traditionally reported to the Pontifex Maximus. It was an anti-Hellenistic revolution! The Christian regime culminated things with the burning of the library of Alexandria. Flynn has got it totally wrong.