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SwoleMan · 04-20-2004, 09:49 AM

These are the same texts, only different translations. The first one is used by Christians to prove that a bishop of Rome, Clement, really is talkning about martyrdom and nothing else. The second one is from this site:

http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/martyrs.htm

Here the word "martyred" is not used.

Wich one of them makes the most sense?

Quote:

But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours, and when he had finally suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

Quote:

But, to pass from the examples of ancient days, let us come to those champions who lived nearest to our time. Let us set before us the noble examples which belong to our generation. By reason of jealousy and envy the greatest and most righteous pillar s of the Church were persecuted, and contended even unto death. Let us set before our eyes the good Apostles. There was Peter who by reason of unrighteous jealousy endured not one nor two but many labours, and thus having borne his testimony went to his appointed place of glory. By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the reward of his faith, having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance.

Toto · 04-20-2004, 10:56 AM

The word "martyr" originally meant only "witness", and only later came to mean someone who witnessed to the faith by dying under torture or state action. So both of these make sense in their own way. Sorry my Greek isn't up to deciding which is the better translation.

This is from Steven Carr's site. Perhaps he will comment. He uses Lightfoot's translation (hardly a hyper skeptical atheist), which can be read in its entirety on Peter Kirby's site:

Clement I

Mathetes · 04-20-2004, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Here the word "martyred" is not used.

Both may be right, because the only thing that the Greek word "μά�?τυς" means is "witness" in a very broad sense. The cognate word "martyr" in Latin means the same. At some point of time in early Christianity, the words became synonymous with "being put to death due to the faith in Christ", but it is difficult to know in this case.

As an example, in Mark 1:44, Jesus sends the healed leper to the priests, "εἰς μα�?τύ�?ιον α�?τοῖς", "as a testimony to them". Of course, Jesus does not intend the leper to be killed, not even suffer because of this testimony.

Oops... Toto beat me to this... Oh, well.

MortalWombat · 04-20-2004, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas83

Wich one of them makes the most sense?

I'm not qualified to know which one is the preferred translation, but here you can find three different English translations of 1 Clement, 2 of which (Lightfoot and Hoole) have "born his testimony", while the other (Roberts-Donaldson) has "suffered martyrdom."

Toto · 04-20-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathetes

. . .
Oops... Toto beat me to this... Oh, well.

Great minds think alike, you know.

But you did come up with a good specific example.

SwoleMan · 04-20-2004, 12:21 PM

Quote:

At some point of time in early Christianity, the words became synonymous with "being put to death due to the faith in Christ", but it is difficult to know in this case.

But not at the time of Clement?

There seems to be a small difference between these two words. Anybody know exactly what?

Quote:

μά�?τυς

Quote:

μα�?τύ�?ιον

Mathetes · 04-20-2004, 01:25 PM

μά�?τυς means "witness, he that gives testimony".

μα�?τύ�?ιον means "testimony".

There are also the words μα�?τυ�?ία, "testimony" and μα�?τυ�?έω, "to give testimony, testify".

You have an example of μά�?τυς itself in Romans 1:9: "God is my witness". Paul clearly does not mean that God was killed.

Quote:

But not at the time of Clement?

This is difficult to know. I believe that Clement of Rome lived around 100 CE and wrote in Greek. My impression is that a Greek reader not familiar with Christian language will NOT have concluded that μα�?τύ�?ιον would mean that someone was killed.

However, I believe Clement epistles were written for a Christian audience, so maybe they already knew what he meant.

Mathetes · 04-20-2004, 02:29 PM

A bit more info from Kirby's site:

Here is a scanned version of the original Greek. Please read note 2 in page 26:

1 Clement 5

Quote:

Thus the mere use of μα�?τυ�?εῖν in this early age does not in itself necessarily imply the martyrdoms of the two Apostles; but on the other hand we need not hesitate to accept the passage of Clement as testimony to this fact...

I find their argument a bit apologetic (they reason that Peter must have been martyred because Jesus predicted it in John 21:18

). But they are interesting.

The correct translation should no doubt read "they gave testimony". Whether Clement implied that the Apostles died a violent death is unclear to me.

SwoleMan · 04-22-2004, 05:22 AM

Would'nt the most natural thing to think, be that "μά�?τυς" started to be interpreted as "martyr" by most people because of Clements writnings?

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04-20-2004, 10:56 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The word "martyr" originally meant only "witness", and only later came to mean someone who witnessed to the faith by dying under torture or state action. So both of these make sense in their own way. Sorry my Greek isn't up to deciding which is the better translation. This is from Steven Carr's site. Perhaps he will comment. He uses Lightfoot's translation (hardly a hyper skeptical atheist), which can be read in its entirety on Peter Kirby's site: Clement I

04-22-2004, 05:22 AM	#9
SwoleMan Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,190	Would'nt the most natural thing to think, be that "μά�?τυς" started to be interpreted as "martyr" by most people because of Clements writnings?

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