stephan huller

Show No Mercy:

Well remember how crazy people were in antiquity. Just remember how ancient writers invent the stupidest etymologies and explanations of words. I have corresponded at length with my mentor Professor Ruairidh Boid of Monash University and one of the greats in Samaritan studes and he has argued that Aramaic speakers probably wouldn't have recognized the connection with Mars and instead would have connected the name MRQH with maroq. Here is what he told me a while back:

Can I remind you again of my casual remark that it seems to me, on the evidence I have gathered, that although Mark is a personal name in Latin and Greek, an Aramaic-speaker would have taken it as a TITLE if it had been useful to do so. When I said that the Samaritan Targum translates Sh-L-M as maroq or mirroq, this definitely doesn’t mean that the Samaritans would have expected to use either of these two specific forms as a name or a title. These two forms are only the infinitives of the root M-R-Q, and the form marqa would have been felt as the ABSTRACT NOUN from the same root. As for speakers of what is attested in Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, and Jewish and Samaritan speakers of Hebrew, they would have felt the form marqa to be the abstract noun from the root M-R-Q meaning in legal usage “signed, sealed, and delivered”. None of the extant Jewish Targums use this word in this place, but the LXX has a translation that looks like the equivalent, which means there was probably once a Jewish Targum with this form. Besides, how else can you explain why it is that the massively important figure Mårqe is not known to us by his Hebrew or Aramaic personal name? So” John Mark” would be a personal name followed by a title. As for the importance of the name John (Yohanan “the Lord is gracious”) here is a plausible route back to the Torah. Note the words “Grace and Truth” right at the start of John’s Gospel, and note that what is meant is that the insight once limited to Moses will be accessible to everyone, the reference being to Exodus XXXIV: 6 IN ITS CONTEXT. The words “Grace upon Grace”don’t mean, as the Evangelicals think, “lots and lots of grace”. They mean Grace on top of Grace or Grace in addition to Grace, i.e the universal awareness of grace going beyond the awareness once limited to Moses. This is what the Greek preposition plainly means, as Francis Moloney (an Australian now working in the U.S.A.) has pointed out in his commentary on John. This makes me wonder just how much Sprachgefühl for Greek most N.T. scholars have. (You can see why I despair when N.T. scholars show their ignorance of the depths of the Torah, or the fact that the N.T. makes no sense without the Torah). I would guess that when Samaritan tradition stresses the numerical equivalence of Mårqe and Mûshi (Moses) it makes a reference to this interpretation or connotation, but with the original significance forgotten.

aa5874

You have NOT provided the chapter of "Dialogue with Trypho" by Justin that show the words "those of Marcion

You KNOW that Justin wrote NOTHING about Marcion in "Dialogue with Trypho."

andrewcriddle

Thanks for this Stephan

IIUC Marcianist as a term for Messalian derives from a leader or supposed leader of the Messalians called Marcian active after 500 CE. I doubt if this usage goes back to Theodosius.

Andrew Criddle

show_no_mercy

Ok, but I'm still not understanding what Samaritans and Aramaic have to do with gentiles with gentile names writing in a gentile language in a primarily gentile religion (2nd century Christianity).

stephan huller

AA. I don't know why I am continuing this. How can any reasonable person argue that we have to chose between Justin's material being 'EXACTLY RIGHT' or 'WORTHLESS.' Schaff says that the single MS is defective. What? Schaff is now a radical witness?

I am only repeating what I wrote earlier because they made this discussion into its own thread and Justin Martyr appears in the title. The reference in Justin's Dialogue

Justin Dialogue With Trypho 35 "Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Μαρκιανοί, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine."

http://books.google.com/books?id=P-8...%CE%AF&f=false

Lipsius and von Harnack had a long running debate about what this reference meant, why 'those of Mark' appear first in the list of heresies. If you can read German here is von Harnack's take on the reading:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lhM...%CE%AF&f=false

And here is Lipsius's take on it:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6QM...page&q&f=false

I doubt very much that this will make any impression on you but they are wrestling with the same things that we (by that I mean everyone but you) are discussing here - the blurring of distinction between 'those of Marcion' and 'those of Mark' that extends through almost every Patristic writer that has ever commented on one or the other, down through to Gregory Nazianzen.

Wave in his Dictionary of Christian Biography (in English for your benefit) writes "though the form Μαρκιανοί (Trypho 35) suggests followers of Marcus, we think Marcion is intended."

In short this reference to 'those of Mark' is almost ALWAYS taken to be a reference to those of Marcion .

For Andrew Criddle's point Harnack also mentions "the Marcianisten in Theodosius. Codex XVI, 5, 65 (Law v. May 30 = 428 Justinian. I, 5, 5)."

stephan huller

But show no mercy, your original question was:

That's why I developed an theoretical Aramaic etymology of the name Marcus (marqus/marqah). And remember when Boid says that maroq is not used for SLM in Jewish sources, that doesn't mean that other (lost) Targumic evidence might have done so.

stephan huller

To Andrew Criddle:

The identification of the Messalians with someone named Marcian is actually quite fascinating. Yes Theodore says that a certain contemporary named Marcian was head of the sect, that is pretty typical of the Patristic writings (i.e. the sect was 'just established yesterday' and the leader is a shadowy figure 'alive today').

I am not as aware of later sects but I am particularly fascinated by any sect whose name develops from Aramaic. The sect is connected with the so called 'Euchites' and whose tradition was first reported in Mesopotamia.

The name Messalians or Massalians (מְצָלין), praying people is Aramaic. צְלָא oravit is found in the Chaldee (Dan. vi. 11; Ezra vi. 10). Epiphanius, whose account of them is the last article (80) of his work on heresies, translates the name (εὐχόμενοι), but in the next generation the Messalians had obtained a technical name in Greek also, and were known as Euchites (εὐχήται or εὐχῖται).

Wace says that "they professed to give themselves entirely to prayer, refusing to work and living by begging; thus differing from the Christian monks, who supported themselves by their labour. They were of both sexes, went about together, and in summer weather slept in the streets promiscuously, as persons who had renounced the world and had no possession or habitation of their own.

Epiphanius dates the commencement of this sect from the reign of Constantius (d. a.d. 361). Theodoret (H. E. iv. 11; Haer. Fab. iv. 10; Rel. Hist. iii., Vit. Marcian. vol. iii. 1146) dates its beginning a few years later under Valentinian.

The point of origin of the Marciansts is very telling- Osrhoene. As I buy into Bauer's thesis that the Marcionite sect represented Christian orthodoxy in the region I think that later references to this sect as Marcianists grows out of the same confusion that we see in the earlier period.

Indeed Bauer also notes that "as for the other side of the question, whether the Marcionites designated themselves simply as "Christians," here, as is so often the case, the true state of affairs has become unclear because we are informed about the heretics primarily by men of the church for whom it is simply self-evident that the name Christian belongs only to people of their kind. That in the early period this had not been true, at least not everywhere, in my opinion follows from the account of the conversion of Mar Aba, patriarch of the Orient who died in 552."

As noted earlier the form of the name 'Marcionite' MRQYONE in the Life of Mar Aba would actual be taken to mean 'those of Mark' hence the confusion in all the sources.

It is also worth noting that the Acts of Archelaus reference a shadowy figure named 'Marcellus' who only Archelaus the bishop of Harran (a city in Osrhoene) interacts with. I wonder whether the Latin translation here of a Syriac manuscript (cf. Jerome Vita) has taken 'Marcion' to be a Greek diminutive and rendered it 'Marcellus' in Latin?

Mani's mission to Harran is to make an appeal to 'Marcellus' that he is the Paraclete of the gospel rather than Paul. Origen EXPLICITLY references the Marcionite belief that Paul was the Paraclete in his Lucan Homilies. There are other Marcionite beliefs and there are high number of variants in the citation of scripture in the text.

Moreover and even more interesting is the idea that aside from the Marcellus who only exists in the imagination of Archelaus (who effectively communes with him) the text references 'another Marcellus' who lived in a previous age who established a worldwide network of churches, hostels and means by which the sick and widows were comforted.

I am quite certain that your reference is the clue to make sense of all the confusion between all the 'Marcionite' and 'Marcionite' references. They do indeed go back to a Syriac term that would lend itself to be taken either way.

The first reference to Marcellus/Marcion in the Acts of Archelaus:

there was a certain man, Marcellus by name, who was esteemed as a person worthy of the highest honour for his manner of life, his pursuits, and his lineage, and not less so for his discretion and his nobility of character: he was possessed also of abundant means; and, what is most important of all, he feared God with the deepest piety, and gave ear always with due reverence to the things which were spoken of Christ. [AA 1]

That Marcellus/Marcion was involved in the Marcionite ἀπολύτρωσις:

And as he could not conceal his solicitude, all aflame for the religion and the fear of God, he at length hastened to Marcellus, and explained to him the importance and difficulty of the case. And when that pattern of piety, Marcellus, heard his narration, without the least delay he went into his house, and provided the price demanded for the prisoners, according to the value set upon them by those who had led them captive; and unlocking the treasures of his goods, he at once distributed the gifts of piety among the soldiers, without any severe consideration of number or distinction, so that they seemed to be presents rather than purchase-moneys.

Marcellus/Marcion is compared with Abraham and is said to be the father of a people:

When Marcellus, the man of consummate piety, had heard this recital, he burst into a flood of tears, touched with pity for misfortunes so great and so various. But making no delay, he at once prepared victuals for the sufferers, and did service with his own hand for the wearied; in this imitating our father Abraham the patriarch, who, when he entertained the angels hospitably on a certain occasion, did not content himself with merely giving the order to his slaves to bring a calf from the herd, but did himself, though advanced in years, go and place it on his shoulders and fetch it in, and did with his own hand prepare food, and set it before the angels. So Marcellus, in discharge of a similar office, directed them to be seated as his guests in companies of ten; and when the seven hundred tables were all provided, he refreshed the whole body of the captives with great delight, so that those who had strength to survive what they had been called to endure, forgot their toils, and became oblivious of all their ills. [AA 3]

Marcellus/Marcion and the Marcellus/Marcion of old:

And truly the estimate of this deed made a magnificent addition to the repute of the other noble actions of Marcellus; for through that whole territory the fame of the piety of Marcellus spread so grandly, that large numbers of men belonging to various cities were inflamed with the intensest desire to see and become acquainted with the man, and most especially those persons who had not had occasion to bear penury before—to all of whom this remarkable man, following the example of a Marcellus of old, furnished aid most indulgently, so that they all declared that there was no one of more illustrious piety than this man. Yea, all the widows, too, who were believers in the Lord had recourse to him, while the imbecile also could reckon on obtaining at his hand most certain help to meet their circumstances; and the orphaned, in like manner, were all supported by him, so that his house was declared to be the hospice for the stranger and the indigent. And above all this, he retained in a remarkable and singular measure his devotion to the faith, building up his own heart upon the rock that shall not be moved.[ibid]

Manes appeal to Marcellus/Marcion (remember Marcion is identified as a herald of Mani in a Coptic Manichaean text):

In this country dwelt a person called Manes, who, when this man's repute had reached him, deliberated largely with himself as to how he might entangle him in the snares of his doctrine, hoping that Marcellus might he made an upholder of his dogma. [AA 4]

The church in Harran seems to be identified as 'the house of Marcellus/Marcion':

A splendid assemblage was thus convened; so large, indeed, that the house of Marcellus, which was of immense size, was filled with those who had been called to be hearers. [AA 12]

Mani's message to the adherents of Marcellus/Marcion:

My brethren, I indeed am a disciple of Christ, and, moreover, an apostle of Jesus; and it is owing to the exceeding kindness of Marcellus that I have hastened hither, with the view of showing him clearly in what manner he ought to keep the system of divine religion, so that the said Marcellus verily, who at present has put himself, like one who has surrendered himself prisoner, under the doctrine of Archclaus, may not, like the dumb animals [AA 13]

Bishop Archelaus's statement about Marcellus/Marcion as the 'rock' upon which the Church was built:

I reside, by the favour of Marcellus, that man of illustrious name, whom he endeavoured to turn aside from our doctrine and faith, with the object, to wit, of making him an effective supporter of this impious teaching. Nevertheless, in spite of all his plausible addresses, he failed to move him or turn him aside from the faith in any one particular. For this most devout Marcellus was only found to be like the rock on which the house was built with the most solid foundations; and when the rain descended, and the floods and the winds burst in and beat upon that house, it stood firm: for it had been built on the most solid and immoveable foundations. And the attempt thus made by this person who is now before you, brought dishonour rather than glory upon himself. Moreover, it does not seem to me that he can be very excusable if he proves to be ignorant of what is in the future; for surely he ought to know beforehand those who are on his own side: certainly he should have this measure of knowledge, if it be true indeed that the Spirit of the Paraclete dwells in him. [AA 46]

Throughout the Acts of Archelaus the influence of Marcellus/Marcion is said to be throughout the world. In the Coptic History of Severus of Al'Ashmunein it is specifically connected with Syria:

Now when Manichaeus, the evil one, heard what this man, Marcellus, had done, he thought over it, and said to himself : «If I could gain this man over, and receive him into my sect, then the whole of Syria would be under my influence.» So he wrote him a letter, in which he said : «The Paraclete, Manes, writes thus to Marcellus. Verily I have heard of the excellence of thy deeds, and therefore I know that thou wilt be a chosen disciple of mine, that I may make known to thee the straight way, which Christ has sent me to teach to men. But now your teachers have led you astray, since they say that God, whose Name is glorious, entered the womb of a woman. And the prophets said untrue words of Christ; for the God of the Old Testament is evil, and wills not that anything should be obtained from him. But as for the God of the New Testament, he is good, and when they take aught from him he does not refuse.» And he said of Christ many words blasphemously, which it is not lawful to repeat; nor has Satan himself ever said the like!

And Manes gave the letter to one like himself, and sent him to Marcellus. But when the messenger came to Syria, none of the people received him on the way, to entertain him at his house; and he suffered greatly from hunger, feeding only upon herbs, until he came to the house of Marcellus. So when Marcellus had received the letter and read it, he sent it to the bishop Archelaus; and having provided the messenger with a lodging, he waited. Then, when the bishop had read the letter, he tore the hair of his head, saying : «Would that I had died before reading this blasphemous letter!» And he sent to Marcellus, who brought the messenger to him; and the bishop asked him concerning the history of this Manes, and in what circumstances he was living. So the man informed Archelaus of those matters. And that messenger desired to remain with these two, when he heard their words, and saw their virtues and their excellence. Then Marcellus requested him to return to Manes with an answer to the letter, and gave him three denarii. But he said : «Pardon me, my lord, but I will not return to him.» Thereupon they rejoiced at the salvation of his soul from the snares of death. And Marcellus wrote to Manes an answer to his letter, and sent it to him bv one of his slaves. And the Father Archelaus said to that slave : «Take nothing from him, and neither eat nor drink with him.» Then he sent him on his journey. And after seven clays, Manes came to Marcellus, dressed in a habit of fine linen, with a striped tunic of fine material beneath it; and he was wrapped in a cloak descending over his feet, adorned with figures in front and behind; and with him were thirty-two youths and girls walking behind him.. So when he entered the house of Marcellus, he went straight to a chair, and sat upon it in the midst of the house; and he thought that they would request him that they might receive instruction from him. So Marcellus sent to the bishop Archelaus, and when he saw Manes sitting on the chair, he was astonished at his want of shame. Then the bishop questioned him, and said to him : «What is thy name?» Manes replied : a My name is Paraclete.» Archelaus said to him : «Art thou the Paraclete of whom the Lord Christ said that he Avould send him to us ?» He said : «Yes; I am he.»

I have always wondered WHY THIS STORY WAS INCLUDED IN A HISTORY OF THE CHURCH OF ST. MARK (i.e. the History of the Coptic Patriarchs). Could it be because it was recognized at one time that Marcellus was somehow connected with St. Mark?

aa5874

So, there is NOTHING wrong with the Roberts-Donaldson translation.

Justin was NOT writing about Marcion in "Dialogue with Trypho" There is no mistake. " the form Μαρκιανοί (Trypho 35) suggests followers of Marcus...."

What you say is not true.

Please state some other source of antiquity where the Greek words for "those of Mark" almost ALWAYS refer to "those of Marcion".

stephan huller

AA

You say:

Holding that thought, holding the point you make, AA. The reason I cited that opinion is that it goes against many other writers I mentioned. It is generally held to be a misreading of Marcionite. Indeed I won't go through the reasons for holding that opinion but the context is groups that claim to be Christian but really aren't. The Marcionites held exclusive rights as it were to the name 'Christian' in Osrhoene according to Bauer. The name Marcionite (as we learn from Adamantius also) is a name applied to the tradition claiming to be Christians by their enemies. Thing done in hostility are rarely accurate or meaningful (as we have learned from your at times pathological intention to disrupt a purposed discussion here).

That was brought to my attention by one of the last living Samaritans (who always stays with my family in November). He marveled at scholarship in the West and characterized it as an endless debate about things that even Samaritans couldn't haggle over among themselves.

Where you want everything to be black and white, there is room to debate how to account for these textual anomalies. Of course you are holding to a different opinion. Thankfully even that is permissible in scholarship.

aa5874

What are talking about? Who had "exclusive rights" to the name Christian? No such thing is true. All sorts of people were called Christians in antiquity based on Justin.

Do you believe Bauer who PERHAPS lived over 1600 years AFTER JUSTIN?

The name "Christian" is derived from the Greek word for "anointing with oil".

Now, you have provided a source which claimed that "the form Μαρκιανοί (Trypho 35) suggests followers of Marcus, " so your suggestion is not even worth the while.


It appears that you don't like when people challenge your flawed theories.

And you have exposed your own hostility.

And what about the Samaritans that stayed with other people in September, October and December?

We can have an endless debate.

Now, you MUST also realise that a different opinion is not disruptive at all. It is QUITE permissible.