Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gstafleu · 07-23-2008, 09:04 AM

The first page (I think) of the book, as quoted on the website, brings up some interesting parallels between the views of early Christian and Islamic development [first the German, then my translation]:

Quote:

Licht ins Dunkel der Anfänge des Islam
Karl-Heinz Ohlig
Ignaz Goldziher, einer der "Väter" der Islamwissenschaft, leitete einen Vor-
trag, den er im Jahre 1900 an der Sorbonne gehalten hat, ein mit dem Satz:
"Schon seit langem begnügt man sich mit dieser bequemen Behauptung:
Der Islam ist auf einmal entstanden und sofort in vollendeter Form in Er-
scheinung (wörtlich: ins helle Tageslicht [`au plein jour'] getreten)."1 Er
warnt davor, "die reichen Materialen" der muslimischen Tradition als
Quellen für eine Klärung für "die frühe Kindheit des Islam" heranzuziehen.
"Die moderne historische Kritik lässt uns gegen eine solche vorsintflutliche
Betrachtungsweise auf der Hut sein."

Die historische Kritik mag um 1900 noch modern gewesen sein, da-
nach allerdings nicht mehr. Die Warnung Goldzihers vor dem bequemen
Weg fand kein Gehör, und die frühe Islamgeschichte wurde und wird,
trotz aller gelegentlich geäußerten Vorbehalte und auch kritischer Publika-
tionen, die nicht rezipiert werden, von der Sira und at-Tabari her rückin-
terpretiert.

---

Light into the dark of the beginnings of Islam
Karl-Heinz Ohlig
Ignaz Goldziher, one of the "fathers" of Islamic studies, began a lecture, which he held in 1900 at the Sorbonne, by saying; "Since a long time people have been satisfied with this convenient assertion: Islam sprang into existence all at once and was complete upon appearance (literally: when it stepped into the clear light of day [`au plein jour']). He warned against adducing "the rich materials" from Muslim tradition as throwing light upon "the early childhood of Islam." "Modern historical criticism puts us on guard against such an antediluvian approach."

Historical criticism may have been modern in 1900, after that time it certainly was not. Goldziher's warning against the easy road was not listened to, and early Islamic history was and is, in spite of all occasionally uttered reservations as well as critical publications, which are not accepted, interpreted back from the Sira and the at-Tabari.

The parallel is that Islam is also seen to have started with a "big bang," just like Christianity is traditionally seen to have done. In both cases this is apparently wrong. Given that both are revealed religions, it is of course religiously necessary to assume such a big-bang start in both cases, which probably explains why it happened.

Gerard Stafleu

Solo · 07-24-2008, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

That's silly patter, Roger. The conquest of the world, or bringing it under the rule of God's law, is in Islam's constitution...

I have no idea why you find my comments unwelcome, or insulting to your religion, ......

<edit>

Jiri

the_cave · 07-24-2008, 12:49 PM

I wonder if it's possible that a 7th-century tribesman, of an unknown name, did indeed compose some or all of the suras, some of which spoke of Jesus, and the author became identified with the "Muhammad" mentioned in the Quran, at a later date.

Net2004 · 07-24-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Based on the premise that reliable history can only be written on the basis of sources that are contemporary with the events described, the contributors to this in-depth investigation present research that reveals the obscure origins of Islam in a completely new light. As the authors meticulously show, the name "Muhammad" first appears on coins in Syria bearing Christian iconography. In this context the name is used as an honorific meaning "revered" or "praiseworthy" and can only refer to Jesus Christ, as Christianity was the predominant religion of the area at this time. This same reference exists in the building inscription of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, built by the caliph `Abd al-Malik.

where in the qur'an is jesus refered to as "praiseworthy" or "revered"?
why is it that no early muslim sects accused each other of being christian?
what appears on the coins? the arabic word "muhammad" or its meaning?
the inscription on the dome of the rock has verses from the qur'an that say,

Quote:

Say: God the one, God the eternal, He did not beget and was not begotten. And there is none like unto Him.... Verily God and His Angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe, bless him and salute him with a salutation!.... Praise be to God, Who hath not taken unto Himself a son, and Who hath no partner in the Sovereignty, nor hath He any protecting friend through dependence.

these verses have hidden christian meaning ?

Quote:

Outer Octagonal Arcade

Muḥammad rasūl Allāh ṣallā-Allāhu ‘alayhi wa-sallam... Muhammad rasūl Allāh inna allāha wa malā'ikatahu yusallūna ‘ala al-nabīyi yā ayyuhā al-ladhīna āmanū ṣallū ‘alayhi wa sallimū taslīman... Muḥammad rasūl Allāh ṣallā-Allāhu ‘alayhi wa malā'ikatahu wa rusulu wa al-taslīman ‘alayhi wa raḥmat Allāh... Muḥammad rasūl Allāh ṣallā-Allāhu ‘alayhi wa taqabbal shafā‘atahu yawm al-qiyamah... Muḥammad rasūl Allāh ṣallā-Allāhu ‘alayhi.

Muhammad is the messenger of God, may God grant him peace... Muhammad is the messenger of God. Verily God and His Angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe, bless him and salute him with a salutation!... Muhammad is the messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him and the angels and His prophets, and peace be on him, and may God have mercy... Muhammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him. May He accept his intercession on the Day of Judgment [on behalf of his people]... Muhammad is the Messenger of God, the blessing of God be on him.

Inner Octagonal Arcade

Muḥammad ‘abd-Allāhi wa rasūluhu inna allāha wa malā'ikatahu yusallūna ‘ala al-nabīyi yā ayyuhā al-ladhīna āmanū ṣallū ‘alayhi wa sallimū taslīman ṣallā-Allāhu ‘alayhi wa-sallam ‘alayhi wa raḥmat Allāh.

Muhammad is the servant of God and His Messenger. Verily God and His Angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe, bless him and salute him with a salutation! The blessing of God be on him and peace be on him, and may God have mercy.

Northern Portal

Muḥammad ‘abd-Allāhi wa rasūluhu arsalahu bi-l-huda wa dīn al-ḥaqq liyudhhiru ‘ala al-dini kullahi wa-law karih-al-mushrikūn. Āmannā billāhi wa mā unzila ila Muḥammad wa mā ūtiya al-nabīyūna min rabbihim lā nufarriqu bayna aḥadin minhum wa naḥnu lahu muslimūn. ṣallū ‘alayhi Muḥammad ‘abduhu wa nabīyahu wa al-salām ‘alayhi wa raḥmat Allāhi wa barakātuhu wa magfiratuhu wa riḍawānahu.

Muhammad is the servant of God and His messenger whom He sent with guidance and the religion of truth that He might make it prevail over all religions even if the associators are averse. We believe in God and that which was revealed unto Muhammad and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. The blessing of God be upon Muhammad, His servant and His prophet, and peace be upon him and the mercy of God and His blessing and His forgiveness and His acceptance.

Eastern Entrance

... an ta-ṣallī ‘ala Muḥammad ‘abdika wa nabīyika wa tataqabbala shafā'atahu fī ummati ṣallū ‘alayhi wa al-salām ‘alayhi wa raḥmat Allāhi wa...

... that You bless Muhammad Your servant, Your prophet, and that You accept his intercession for his people, the blessing of God be upon him and peace be upon him and the mercy of God and...

since when does a god become slave of god in islamic thought?

the_cave · 07-24-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

where in the qur'an is jesus refered to as "praiseworthy" or "revered"?

The idea is that those places in the Quran where the word "Muhammad" appear were originally references to Jesus.

Quote:

why is it that no early muslim sects accused each other of being christian?

This isn't a bad objection, but it might be anachronistic. You're looking at it from the point of view of a world in which Islam exists. But if there was a period during the 7th century when Islam was still differentiating itself from Christianity, then you couldn't hurl such accusations--because there was no Islam yet from which to hurl them!

Quote:

these verses have hidden christian meaning ?

They might, from a heretical point of view.

Quote:

since when does a god become slave of god in islamic thought?

Jesus was not necessarily viewed as god in certain churches at the time--there were a variety of interpretations.

Net2004 · 07-24-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

19:30-34 4:163 3:45 2:136 66:12 4:156 57:27 43:59 5:75 5:116-117 5:77 5:72 5:17 4:158-159 3:55 4:157 61:14 61:6 43:64 5:78 5:46 3:48-50 5:110 2:253 2:87 21:91 4:171

i have quoted above all the places where jesus (esa) is mentioned in the Qur'an.if the qur'an was being written in a time where "...Christianity was the predominant religion..." then why in the verses above jesus is not refered to as muhammad?

Quote:

As the authors meticulously show, the name "Muhammad" first appears on coins in Syria bearing Christian iconography. In this context the name is used as an honorific meaning "revered" or "praiseworthy" and can only refer to Jesus Christ, as Christianity was the predominant religion of the area at this time.

the_cave · 07-24-2008, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

i have quoted above all the places where jesus (esa) is mentioned in the Qur'an.if the qur'an was being written in a time where "...Christianity was the predominant religion..." then why in the verses above jesus is not refered to as muhammad?

This is a fine objection (and another explanation for the coins might simply be that Muhammad himself was named after the honorific for Jesus!), but keep in mind that it's possible the Quran is not the work of a single author. Why is Muhammad (whoever he was) called by many, many different honorifics in the Quran?

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-24-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_cave

This isn't a bad objection, but it might be anachronistic. You're looking at it from the point of view of a world in which Islam exists. But if there was a period during the 7th century when Islam was still differentiating itself from Christianity, then you couldn't hurl such accusations--because there was no Islam yet from which to hurl them!

If Islam was trying to differentiate itself from anything in the 7th century, it was from Judaism, not Christianity.

Jeffrey

the_cave · 07-25-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_cave

This isn't a bad objection, but it might be anachronistic. You're looking at it from the point of view of a world in which Islam exists. But if there was a period during the 7th century when Islam was still differentiating itself from Christianity, then you couldn't hurl such accusations--because there was no Islam yet from which to hurl them!

If Islam was trying to differentiate itself from anything in the 7th century, it was from Judaism, not Christianity.

Jeffrey

How so? There are several passages in the Quran which try to differentiate Islamic doctrine from Trinitarianism and orthodox Christology.

PhilosopherJay · 07-25-2008, 01:42 PM

Hi Net2004,

I haven't researched this in a number of years, but I recall reading that the first Non-Islamic references to the koran were circa 700 C.E. If we assume that the first reference came shortly after the creation of the book, that would leave us more than 1/2 century for the ruling Caliphate to differentiate Jesus from Mohammed and create a legendary Mohammed as their founder/prophet.

Also, as I recall, there is only one direct reference to Mohammed in the Koran (I could be wrong about this). If true, it is interesting that there should be some thirty direct references to the prophet Jesus and only one to the prophet Mohammed. That would suggest that the book was written much more by Christians than Mohammedans.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

Quote:

19:30-34 4:163 3:45 2:136 66:12 4:156 57:27 43:59 5:75 5:116-117 5:77 5:72 5:17 4:158-159 3:55 4:157 61:14 61:6 43:64 5:78 5:46 3:48-50 5:110 2:253 2:87 21:91 4:171

i have quoted above all the places where jesus (esa) is mentioned in the Qur'an.if the qur'an was being written in a time where "...Christianity was the predominant religion..." then why in the verses above jesus is not refered to as muhammad?

Quote:

As the authors meticulously show, the name "Muhammad" first appears on coins in Syria bearing Christian iconography. In this context the name is used as an honorific meaning "revered" or "praiseworthy" and can only refer to Jesus Christ, as Christianity was the predominant religion of the area at this time.

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07-24-2008, 12:49 PM	#23
the_cave Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 1,443	I wonder if it's possible that a 7th-century tribesman, of an unknown name, did indeed compose some or all of the suras, some of which spoke of Jesus, and the author became identified with the "Muhammad" mentioned in the Quran, at a later date.

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