Freethought & Rationalism Archive

XKV8R · 03-22-2011, 01:59 PM

my point is that even after the recapture of the temple by the maccabeans, the iconography is of a 7-branch menorah. the mosaics from the period all exhibit 7-branch menorahs. burial inscriptions too.

what is the earliest known evidence of a 9-branch hanukiah? and if it was such a big deal earlier, why don't we see them earlier?

of course, this is all besides the point; the picture in the text does not appear to be drawn correctly. someone (modern or ancient) made a mistake.

maryhelena · 03-22-2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XKV8R

my point is that even after the recapture of the temple by the maccabeans, the iconography is of a 7-branch menorah. the mosaics from the period all exhibit 7-branch menorahs. burial inscriptions too.

what is the earliest known evidence of a 9-branch hanukiah? and if it was such a big deal earlier, why don't we see them earlier?

of course, this is all besides the point; the picture in the text does not appear to be drawn correctly. someone (modern or ancient) made a mistake.

Or they are making a point - and if it has anything to do with the events of 37 bc - then they had pretty much better make their point in some symbolic manner...

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 02:09 PM

I have been looking into the earliest date of the hannukiah. No luck. I think that would be found in archaeological studies. One can see though the potential messianic and revolutionary symbolism inherent here.

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 02:27 PM

Here is what I can find for earliest representations of nine-armed menorah:

Fifth century tombstones http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...ine%20&f=false

A door from Kafr Yasif dated to the third century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...ine%20&f=false

On what looks like a Samaritan lamp (!) http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...ine%20&f=false

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 02:35 PM

Here is something very interesting from Hachlili's book p. 198:

Quote:

The symmetrical design was an integral part of Jewish art (but see Vitto 1993:166 who argues that this phenomenon seems to be characteristic of local Palestinian art). The inclination to depict unidentical objects such as the pair of menoroth or animals within the heraldic design must have been intentional, as it would have been just as easy to portray identical designs. Furthermore, it need not be related to unskillful artistic treatment as some designs do use symmetrical patterns. Unidentical symmetry was a style intentionally adopted by the Jews in particular. One may conjecture that it is associated with a desire to avoid a perfection that only God can achieve. Yet it may have been due to the character of Jewish popular art, and to the artists' standards of composition and their cultural environment, which did not demand perfection.

While this is isn't the exact same thing it could be used to argue for the authenticity of the discovery.

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 02:47 PM

Nine-armed menorah seem to be found in the Golan in the early period http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false

Another interesting citation making reference to the Talmudic reference cited above:

Quote:

Only from the third century does the seven-branched menorah appear as a symbol showing complete disregard for this prohibition. Relatively few examples of three-, five- and nine-branched menoroth have been found from this period

http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...ine%20&f=false

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 02:51 PM

lamps with 'usually more than seven from the bar Kochba period' http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false

Sixth century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false

Fifth century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false

Fifth century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false

Fourth century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 02:56 PM

My conclusion would be that it could still be a fake but the presence of a nine-branched menorah has no bearing on this question.

maryhelena · 03-22-2011, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Nine-armed menorah seem to be found in the Golan in the early period http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false

Another interesting citation making reference to the Talmudic reference cited above:

Quote:

Only from the third century does the seven-branched menorah appear as a symbol showing complete disregard for this prohibition. Relatively few examples of three-, five- and nine-branched menoroth have been found from this period

http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...ine%20&f=false

Quote:

The most famous and rarest of all Judaean coins was issued in the final days of Antigonus Mattathias' reign, in a last ditch attempt to rally the Jews against Herod’s overwhelming forces. The small coins feature holy ceremonial objects from the Temple of Jerusalem - the seven-branched menorah and table of shew bread -- symbols that never appeared before or since until the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...Maccabees.html

A better picture of the Menorah coin from Antigonus - apparently a ‘perfect’ representation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Menorah-antignos.jpg

stephan huller · 03-22-2011, 03:22 PM

Some other guy claims to have read the same book I did answering Robert's question:

Bob asks an important question here. I had a quick scan through Rachel Hachlili's The Menorah, The Ancient Seven-Armed Candelabrum (Brill, 2001). She mentions that there are examples of menorot with more or less than seven arms. She lists some on pp. 438-39; 464, 477. Some do come from the land of Israel, although she noted that they are predominately from the Golan (69, 200). Many of these examples come from the 4th-5th century CE, but she also lists some from the 1st century (441-42), which suggests that a nine branched Menorah is not an indicator of a forgery.

I don't know I guess it's a coincidence. He didn't notice the thing about the deliberate effort to avoid perfection

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03-22-2011, 01:59 PM	#41
XKV8R Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: ucla, southern california Posts: 140	my point is that even after the recapture of the temple by the maccabeans, the iconography is of a 7-branch menorah. the mosaics from the period all exhibit 7-branch menorahs. burial inscriptions too. what is the earliest known evidence of a 9-branch hanukiah? and if it was such a big deal earlier, why don't we see them earlier? of course, this is all besides the point; the picture in the text does not appear to be drawn correctly. someone (modern or ancient) made a mistake.

03-22-2011, 02:09 PM	#43
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I have been looking into the earliest date of the hannukiah. No luck. I think that would be found in archaeological studies. One can see though the potential messianic and revolutionary symbolism inherent here.

03-22-2011, 02:27 PM	#44
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here is what I can find for earliest representations of nine-armed menorah: Fifth century tombstones http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...ine%20&f=false A door from Kafr Yasif dated to the third century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...ine%20&f=false On what looks like a Samaritan lamp (!) http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...ine%20&f=false

03-22-2011, 02:51 PM	#47
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	lamps with 'usually more than seven from the bar Kochba period' http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false Sixth century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false Fifth century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false Fifth century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false Fourth century http://books.google.com/books?id=TOI...q=nine&f=false

03-22-2011, 02:56 PM	#48
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	My conclusion would be that it could still be a fake but the presence of a nine-branched menorah has no bearing on this question.

03-22-2011, 03:22 PM	#50
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Some other guy claims to have read the same book I did answering Robert's question: Bob asks an important question here. I had a quick scan through Rachel Hachlili's The Menorah, The Ancient Seven-Armed Candelabrum (Brill, 2001). She mentions that there are examples of menorot with more or less than seven arms. She lists some on pp. 438-39; 464, 477. Some do come from the land of Israel, although she noted that they are predominately from the Golan (69, 200). Many of these examples come from the 4th-5th century CE, but she also lists some from the 1st century (441-42), which suggests that a nine branched Menorah is not an indicator of a forgery. I don't know I guess it's a coincidence. He didn't notice the thing about the deliberate effort to avoid perfection

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