Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vinnie · 08-27-2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

I meant second century as the terminus ad quem (200 ce). It is confusing as you point out so I will amend it, thanks. The lack of an explanation for the terms is that they are part of a larger work and all this was explained in an earlier section....since I broke it up I may consider revising that as well...

Vinnie

I think that we should avoid using words and phrases not immediately comprehensible!

Except that is a chapter of a "book-type" work that clearly explained these terms in an earlier section on historical methodology:

http://ecwar.org/gmarkprocedure.pdf

spamandham · 08-27-2009, 11:21 PM

I can't explain why I am skeptical of an 18th century discovery, that is purported to be a 7th century copy of a 2nd century work.

But supposing all this is true, it still allows the Bar Kochba revolt to be the origin of Christianity as we know it, which happens to be my hobby horse.

Vinnie · 08-27-2009, 11:29 PM

I think Ben knows Latin judging by his website...I wonder how proficient he is...

spin · 08-28-2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Certainly the Latin superlative may mean "most X" or "very X". But the argument being made here seems to be being made by one who is thinking in English. It feels wrong to me, with my limited Latin. The point of the superlative is to qualify the base word, nuper. The base word means "recently". The superlative therefore means "really recently". I have a feeling that the comparative rather than the superlative would be used here to give the sense of "more recent than the others."

I don't think this is functional. Check this brief passage from Bede (Hist. 2.19):

Quo epistulae principio manifeste declaratur, et nuperrime temporibus illis hanc apud eos heresim exortam, et non totam eorum gentem, sed quosdam in eis hac fuisse inplicitos.

By this beginning of the epistle it evidently appears that this heresy
arose among them in very late times, and that not all their nation, but
only some of them, were involved in the same.

There is very little difference between this phrase in Bede and the one in the canon. I don't think there is any problem seen in Roger's complaint with the phrase. Bede: in these most recent times and Muratori: in our most recent times.

spin

robto · 08-28-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinnie

http://ecwar.org/Chapter3Muratorian.pdf

Thoughts?

Thanks for this, Vinnie, I thought it was very well done and enlightening. I was surprised not to see any reference to Hahneman's excellent book, The Muratorian Fragment and the Development of the Canon (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Clarendon Pr 1992), which comes to the same conclusion as you.

Roger Pearse · 08-28-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Certainly the Latin superlative may mean "most X" or "very X". But the argument being made here seems to be being made by one who is thinking in English. It feels wrong to me, with my limited Latin. The point of the superlative is to qualify the base word, nuper. The base word means "recently". The superlative therefore means "really recently". I have a feeling that the comparative rather than the superlative would be used here to give the sense of "more recent than the others."

I don't think this is functional. Check this brief passage from Bede (Hist. 2.19):

Quo epistulae principio manifeste declaratur, et nuperrime temporibus illis hanc apud eos heresim exortam, et non totam eorum gentem, sed quosdam in eis hac fuisse inplicitos.

By this beginning of the epistle it evidently appears that this heresy
arose among them in very late times, and that not all their nation, but
only some of them, were involved in the same.

There is very little difference between this phrase in Bede and the one in the canon. I don't think there is any problem seen in Roger's complaint with the phrase. Bede: in these most recent times and Muratori: in our most recent times.
spin

It looks to me also as if the usage in Bede is the same, and I suspect the meaning is much the same. But of course we must remember that nuperrime is an adverb, qualifying a verb (exortam), not illis temporibus.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book2.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

HOW THE AFORESAID HONORIUS FIRST, AND AFTERWARDS JOHN, WROTE LETTERS TO THE NATION OF THE SCOTS, CONCERNING THE OBSERVANCE OF EASTER, AND THE PELAGIAN HERESY. [A.D. 634.]

THE same Pope Honorius also wrote to the Scots [Irish], ... He also in the same epistle admonished them to be careful to crush the Pelagian heresy, which he had been informed was reviving among them. The beginning of the epistle was as follows-

"To our most beloved and most holy Tomianus, Columbanus, ... Lest such intricate questions should remain unresolved, we opened the same, and found that some of your province, endeavouring to revive a new heresy out of an old one, contrary to the orthodox faith, do through ignorance reject our Easter, when Christ was sacrificed; and contend that the same should be kept on the fourteenth moon with the Hebrews."

By this beginning of the epistle it evidently appears that this heresy sprang up among them of very late times, and that not all their nation, but only some of them, had fallen into the same.

The translation is a little loose. "The heresy exortam nupperime - having arisen very (or most) recently -- temporibus illis -- in those times".

All the best,

Roger Pearse

spin · 08-28-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I don't think this is functional. Check this brief passage from Bede (Hist. 2.19):

Quo epistulae principio manifeste declaratur, et nuperrime temporibus illis hanc apud eos heresim exortam, et non totam eorum gentem, sed quosdam in eis hac fuisse inplicitos.

By this beginning of the epistle it evidently appears that this heresy
arose among them in very late times, and that not all their nation, but
only some of them, were involved in the same.

There is very little difference between this phrase in Bede and the one in the canon. I don't think there is any problem seen in Roger's complaint with the phrase. Bede: in these most recent times and Muratori: in our most recent times.
spin

It looks to me also as if the usage in Bede is the same, and I suspect the meaning is much the same. But of course we must remember that nuperrime is an adverb, qualifying a verb (exortam), not illis temporibus.

But illis temporibus is the adverbial phrase qualifying the verb. There is no reason why nuperrime doesn't work in apposition with illis temporibus (or nostris temporibus).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book2.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

HOW THE AFORESAID HONORIUS FIRST, AND AFTERWARDS JOHN, WROTE LETTERS TO THE NATION OF THE SCOTS, CONCERNING THE OBSERVANCE OF EASTER, AND THE PELAGIAN HERESY. [A.D. 634.]

THE same Pope Honorius also wrote to the Scots [Irish], ... He also in the same epistle admonished them to be careful to crush the Pelagian heresy, which he had been informed was reviving among them. The beginning of the epistle was as follows-

"To our most beloved and most holy Tomianus, Columbanus, ... Lest such intricate questions should remain unresolved, we opened the same, and found that some of your province, endeavouring to revive a new heresy out of an old one, contrary to the orthodox faith, do through ignorance reject our Easter, when Christ was sacrificed; and contend that the same should be kept on the fourteenth moon with the Hebrews."

By this beginning of the epistle it evidently appears that this heresy sprang up among them of very late times, and that not all their nation, but only some of them, had fallen into the same.

The translation is a little loose. "The heresy exortam nupperime - having arisen very (or most) recently -- temporibus illis -- in those times".

(Most translations are a little loose: one language rarely maps to another conveniently.)

You don't follow the translation you supply, but choose a reading which separates nuperrime from the temporal phrase it is physically located with in each case. The close location suggests an intended connection.

spin

Roger Pearse · 08-28-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It looks to me also as if the usage in Bede is the same, and I suspect the meaning is much the same. But of course we must remember that nuperrime is an adverb, qualifying a verb (exortam), not illis temporibus.

But illis temporibus is the adverbial phrase qualifying the verb. There is no reason why nuperrime doesn't work in apposition with illis temporibus (or nostris temporibus).

When you start translating, you will find it good practise to relate adverbs to verbs first and foremost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book2.html

The translation is a little loose. "The heresy exortam nupperime - having arisen very (or most) recently -- temporibus illis -- in those times".

(Most translations are a little loose: one language rarely maps to another conveniently.)

If you wish to defend the choice of words of the translator of Bede, it would probably be best to do so with specifics of the Latin.

Quote:

You don't follow the translation you supply, but choose a reading which separates nuperrime from the temporal phrase it is physically located with in each case. The close location suggests an intended connection.

Not sure what is meant here.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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08-27-2009, 11:21 PM	#12
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	I can't explain why I am skeptical of an 18th century discovery, that is purported to be a 7th century copy of a 2nd century work. But supposing all this is true, it still allows the Bar Kochba revolt to be the origin of Christianity as we know it, which happens to be my hobby horse.

08-27-2009, 11:29 PM	#13
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	I think Ben knows Latin judging by his website...I wonder how proficient he is...

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