Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 05-21-2013, 10:47 PM

The woman who purchased the SUV saw that the SUV was good for carting groceries, and could also be used to tow the family's pontoon boat down to the river.

Iskander · 05-22-2013, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I was reading Bonwetsch's German translation of Methodius and I was struggling with the concept of Free Will (not in the least because I don't believe in it; I think Free Will is just another word for egoism, vanity etc). That not withstanding I was thinking about what Christianity would be like without the concept of Free Will. Is it possible? I think Marcionitism to some degree may have been developed around these principles. As Moll notes the Marcionite myth understands that the Old Testament God created man as a compulsive transgressor, gave him the Law which he was too feeble to obey, and now judges him for his transgressions. According to this conception then the judgment upon Adam in Paradise is taken away. Again according to the Marcionites Adam failed because he was made of an inferior substance = matter which equals evil. This low estimation of matter ultimately derives from Plato. One does not encounter the 'problem of free-will' in the Greek philosophers as we are familiar with it. I am not sure either Plato or Aristotle even mention the concept of will let alone free will. The emphasis on the idea that humans could have chosen differently is entirely Jewish. But does Christian salvation necessarily depend on the idea of Free Will?

The Greeks most certainly argued about fatalism and determinism. See Aristotle "on Interpretation" the Sea Battle and Epicurus, invoked random swerves of atoms to eliminate strict determinism, which are directly related to free will. Aristotle atgued against fate, the Sea Battle is not predestined, determined, we have free will. the Stoics debated this stuff but little Stoic materials have been perserved.

From Augustine on free will was denigrated. Augustine wrote on the issue for some 30 years, "On Free Will" and in his "Retractions" gave up on free will. Sparked by his debates with the Pelagians. In the end he declared in the matter, "God's Grace" (Predestination) won out, which line of reasoning was followed by Luther and Calvin.
Luther's 'Bondage of the Will" is online and worth reading.

Today the issue is divided between anti-free will theologies (Lutherism, Calvanism) and pro-free will theologists (semi-pelagians - Arminians) Catholics and Methodists et al.

Cheerful Charlie

Do you know what free-will means, then?It is a genuine question honestly seeking an answer.

In another section of the forum, recently, someone posted this,

Quote:

Sam Harris' "Free Will" helped me determine that..Life is nothing but pure uncontrolled chaos and I am frustrated

Do you understand “free will?”

Cheerful Charlie · 05-22-2013, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

The Greeks most certainly argued about fatalism and determinism. See Aristotle "on Interpretation" the Sea Battle and Epicurus, invoked random swerves of atoms to eliminate strict determinism, which are directly related to free will. Aristotle atgued against fate, the Sea Battle is not predestined, determined, we have free will. the Stoics debated this stuff but little Stoic materials have been perserved.

From Augustine on free will was denigrated. Augustine wrote on the issue for some 30 years, "On Free Will" and in his "Retractions" gave up on free will. Sparked by his debates with the Pelagians. In the end he declared in the matter, "God's Grace" (Predestination) won out, which line of reasoning was followed by Luther and Calvin.
Luther's 'Bondage of the Will" is online and worth reading.

Today the issue is divided between anti-free will theologies (Lutherism, Calvanism) and pro-free will theologists (semi-pelagians - Arminians) Catholics and Methodists et al.

Cheerful Charlie

Do you know what free-will means, then?It is a genuine question honestly seeking an answer.

In another section of the forum, recently, someone posted this,

Quote:

Sam Harris' "Free Will" helped me determine that..Life is nothing but pure uncontrolled chaos and I am frustrated

Do you understand “free will?”

Free Will is not one thing. How can we have free will if God is omniscient? Is the future fated? See Laplace's demon. Modern day philosophers argue about free will in different ways than above. Mostly bad arguments. If one is born in a Moslem naion, you will likely be a Moslem, In a Christian nation, Christian. How much free will do you have? If you hate pickled beets, can you freely will yourself to love pickled beets?

Of course not all born in a Moslem nation are in fact Moslems, one can become an atheist. We can have free will. There are lots of different forms of free will posited. Not just one. Like God, one needs to start with a definition to discuss it or think about it. Remembering there is not just one definition to consider, helps.

Cheerful Charlie

Iskander · 05-23-2013, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Do you know what free-will means, then?It is a genuine question honestly seeking an answer.

In another section of the forum, recently, someone posted this,

Do you understand “free will?”

Free Will is not one thing. How can we have free will if God is omniscient? Is the future fated? See Laplace's demon. Modern day philosophers argue about free will in different ways than above. Mostly bad arguments. If one is born in a Moslem naion, you will likely be a Moslem, In a Christian nation, Christian. How much free will do you have? If you hate pickled beets, can you freely will yourself to love pickled beets?

Of course not all born in a Moslem nation are in fact Moslems, one can become an atheist. We can have free will. There are lots of different forms of free will posited. Not just one. Like God, one needs to start with a definition to discuss it or think about it. Remembering there is not just one definition to consider, helps.

Cheerful Charlie

Hobbes found that to speak of ‘free will’ is senseless speech, an absurdity. He says that ‘free will’ is a mere sound without any meaning.
What would you say to him?

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan
Oxford World’s Classics, OUP, 1996, page 29
ISBN 9780199537280

.

Quote:

CHAPTER V: Of Reason and Science.
Of error and absurdity

But when we reason in words of general signification, and fall upon a general inference which is false, though it be commonly called error, it is indeed an absurdity, or senseless speech. For error is but a deception, in presuming that somewhat is past, or to come; of which, though it were not past, or not to come, yet there was no impossibility discoverable. But when we make a general assertion, unless it be a true one, the possibility of it is inconceivable.

And words whereby we conceive nothing but the sound, are those we call absurd, insignificant, and nonsense.

And therefore if a man should talk to me of a round quadrangle; or, accidents of bread in cheese; or, immaterial substances; or of a free subject; a free will; or any free, but free from being hindered by opposition, I should not say he were in an error, but that his words were without meaning, that is to say, absurd.

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05-21-2013, 10:47 PM	#11
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The woman who purchased the SUV saw that the SUV was good for carting groceries, and could also be used to tow the family's pontoon boat down to the river.

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