maryhelena

Indeed - Philo needs to be questioned first!

Elior's argument is that Philo's Essenes are a philosophical ideal; a philosophical ideal that he portrayed as existing in Syria and Palestine. Josephus dated his Essenes by connecting them to specific historical figures: The death of Antigonus around 104/103 b.c. A prophecy regarding Herod the Great. The dream of Archelaus. i.e. Josephus gave Philo's philosophical ideal a pseudo-history. An invented 'history'.

Duvduv

I just read Philo's account. He seems to suggest the name Essene as a nickname of several thousand pious Jews, though without indicating at all where they actually live and who their leaders are.
They attend synagogues and hear the Law explained.
It sounds like they could be any Pharisee rabbinic Jews in Yavneh or around Jerusalem. Not from those involved in the priesthood at the Temple.

Duvduv

Josephus also made a big deal of the Zealots, as if they were a worldwide movement. But if he only believed the Pharisees to represent a few thousand Jews, then why didn't the vast majority of Jews have a philosophy? More nonsense from Josephus regardless of the Testimonium.
He obviously misunderstood Philo's description of Essenes as well.

spin

`Am ha-'Arets.

Minimalist

I recall an article by a Professor Goranson (?) that Pliny's account was taken from an earlier writing by Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa. Agrippa was Governor of Syria c 15 BC. Besides, it almost seems as if Pliny was more interested in writing to amuse a greco-roman audience about goofy fanatics.

One wonders if worldly first century Romans would have felt they were akin to hoboes? A curiousity but certainly nothing to be emulated.

jdboy

"Pliny clearly wrote that the Essenes that lived near the Dead Sea "had not one woman, had renounced all pleasure ... and no one was born in their race"."
From Josephus:" Also, they were forbidden from swearing oaths[41] and from sacrificing animals.[42] They controlled their tempers and served as channels of peace,[41] carrying weapons only for protection against robbers"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

This is what the Romans wished, what they actually had was the opposite. They are writing about the Essenses representing the past warlike zealot and their future as a peace loving Jewish culture. The Essenes are fiction

Duvduv

Maryhelena, who's to say that everything cited as the words of Philo are anymore his words than are everything stated in the name of Irenaeus in his book on Heresies?! So perhaps we do have interpolations after all.......the idea of the Logos/Word-Son within any Jewish context makes no sense at all.
So perhaps the piece in On the Confusion of Tongues
(146) IS in fact an interpolation:

"And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image, and he who sees Israel."

And maybe this in Who is the Heir of Divine Things? 42.205-6:"And the Father who created the universe has given to his archangelic and most ancient Word a pre-eminent gift, to stand on the confines of both, and separated that which had been created from the Creator.

And this same Word is continually a suppliant to the immortal God on behalf of the mortal race, which is exposed to affliction and misery; and is also the ambassador, sent by the Ruler of all, to the subject race.

And the Word rejoices in the gift, and, exulting in it, announces it and boasts of it, saying, 'And I stood in the midst, between the Lord and You; neither being uncreated as God, nor yet created as you, but being in the midst between these two extremities ... For I will proclaim peaceful intelligence to the creation from him who has determined to destroy wars, namely God, who is ever the guardian of peace.'

When Eusebius claims that Philo had contact with Peter in Rome, maybe he was offering a good coverup of nonsense for some interesting interpolations in Philo's writings.:

"It seems likely [Philo] wrote this after listening to their expositions of the Holy Scriptures, and it is very probable that what he calls short works by their early writers were the gospels, the apostolic writings, and in all probability passages interpreting the old prophets, such as one contained in the Epistle to the Hebrews and several others of Paul's epistles.

It is also recorded that under Claudius, Philo came to Rome to have conversations with Peter, then preaching to the people there ... It is plain enough that he not only knew but welcomed with whole-hearted approval the apostolic men of his day, who it seems were of Hebrew stock and therefore, in the Jewish manner, still retained most of their ancient customs."

– Eusebius, The History of the Church, p50,52

aa5874

Why do imply Philo mentioned Jesus when he did NOT?? Philo did NOT mention Jesus, or that God had a son named Jesus, or that Jesus was sacrificied for the Sin of Mankind.

Philo wrote NOTHING about an apostle called Peter in his extant writings.

You need to investigate WRITINGS attributed Eusebius because they appear to contain LIES about Philo, Josephus, Jesus, the disciples, Paul and the Council of Niceae.

And again, it does NOT make any sense at all for a fraudster or an interpolator to write over FORTY books attributed to Philo and completely forgot to mention CHRISTIANS but wrote about Essenes instead.

Do you have any idea how many books are attributed to Philo???

Over FORTY books are attributed to Philo and NOT one of them mentions Jesus, the Holy Ghost, the disciples and Paul, nor salvation by crucifixion and resurrection.

The writings of Philo were NOT manipulated.

It is wholly illogical that an manipulated source would mention ONLY the Essenes in the 1st century and NEVER a word about Christians.

"Philo's Apology for the Jewssee http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/

Duvduv

Och! I didn't imply he did. But what he did say served as convenient fuel for the Christian Eusebian sect. Eusebius liked it very much, and the words in Philo sounds suspiciously non-Jewish.
You didn't read my previous postings. I noted that Philo described people he nicknamed Essenes without saying anything about where they live or who their leaders are, etc. It means very little in terms of a separate sect a la Josephus.

aa5874

Again, you are not making much sense. Philo wrote OVER FORTY books and did NOT mention Jesus, the disciples, Christians, the Holy Ghost, Paul, Barnabas, Mary, Joseph, the Apostles, the resurrection, Salvation by Sacrifice of Jesus--NOTHING--ZERO--NIL but WROTE about the Essenes that are Multiple Attested by Josephus and Pliny the elder.

NOTHING that EUSEBIUS wrote about CHRISTIANS in the 1st century is corroborated by Philo, Josephus or Pliny the Elder.

Please, please, please. The writings of Philo SHOW NO evidence of manipulation.

The writings of Eusebius show Evidence of Fiction.