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Old 05-04-2004, 04:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
There are no examples of guaranteed authentic letters by someone claiming to have known Jesus, but the letters of James of 1 & 2 Peter may be authentic and both persons are listed amongst his closest followers.
Thanks, Legion.

Regarding The Letter of James, Udo Schnelle writes:
Quote:
Finally,the history of canon speaks against James the Lord's brother as author of the Letter of James. Prior to 200 CE there is no solid evidence of the literary use of James. In the Muratirian Canon (ca. 200) James is missing, just as in Tertullian, and Eusebius (HE 2.23, 24b, 25) reports of James:
'This is the story of James. He is supposed to be the author of the first of the so-called "Catholic Letters,: but let it be noted that its authenticity is doubted, since not many of the Elders have referred either to it or the so-called "Letter of Jude," which likewise has been counted among the "Catholic Letters". Still, we are aware that these two letters, like the others, have been read aloud in most of the churches.'
The Letter of James began to be generally accepted only after 200 CE, cited for the first time as Scripture in Origen (Select Ps 30.6 [PG 12.1300]). The canonical status of James continued to be disputed, however, and did not attain general acceptance as a canonical document until very late. This would be an extraordinary development if James had really been written by James the brother of the Lord and this had been known in early Christianity.

< ... snip ... >

The question of authorship continues to be a controversial item in the discussion. While F. Mussner, M. Hengel and W. Popkes hold James the Lord's brother to be directly or indirectly the author (on differing grounds), the majority of exegetes regarg James as a pseudepigraphical document.

- see The History and Theology of the New Testament Writings [emphasis added - CA]
Regarding I Peter:
Quote:
A number of considerations, however, speak strongly against Petrine authorship:
  1. I Peter is written in a sophisticated Greek style. But the predominantly bilingual character of Palestine and the later missionary activity of Peter in Greek-speaking areas (In Cor. 9-5; 1.12) allow the possibility that Peter was proficient in Greek as well as in his native Aramaic. However, the style of I Peter corresponds not to the oral, but to the literary Koine, which points clearly to Greek as the author's native tongue. Furthermore, the tradition in the ancient church associated with the Gospel of Mark (see above 3.4.2) presupposes that Peter had not mastered the Greek language.
  2. In I Pet. 1.1 the author describes himselh as apostle, but in I Pet. 5.1 as fellow elder. One who was a member of the original Twelve, an apostle, the one to whom the risen Jesus first appeared, need hardly hahe resorted to this title that appeared late in the development of early Christian ecclesiology. It should be noted that the letter gives no personal information about its purported author. Thus references to the passion of Jesus come into view only as elements of early Christian tradition (cf. I Pet. 2.22-25); the primary testimony of an eyewitness is nowhere found in the letter.
  3. The numerous points of contact between I Peter and the letters of Paul (see below 7.2.7) show that the author of I Peter takes up the tradition of the churches in Asia Minor, but does not write as an eyewitness of the life of Jesus and the misionary history of early Christianity. Thus an awareness of the problematic associated with the incident in Antioch (Gal. 2.11-14) is entirely missing from the letter.
  4. The author of I Peter cites the Old Testament primarily from the LXX (exception: Prov 10.12 in Pet. 4.8).
  5. The spread of Christianity presupposed in Asia Minor and the ecumenical perspective in I Pet. 5.9b,13 likewise point to a later phase in early Christian missionary history.
The critical approach to Petrine authorship began in earnest in the nineteenth century, and in recent exegesis I Peter is mostly regarded as a pseudepigraphical writing.

- ibid [emphasis and formatting added - CA]
Finally, regarding 2 Peter:
Quote:
Some of the arguments alraedy presented in 7.2.2 already speak against the historicity of his claim, as do especially three observations about 2 Peter itself:
  1. 2 Peter takes over almost the entire content of the Letter of Jude (see 7.4.7 below). Such a procedure is excluded on material and chronological grounds.
  2. In 2 Pet. 3.4 the author breaks through the fictive literary world he has created: the 'fathers' have fallen asleep, so that now doubts on the parousia have arisen. Peter himself belongs to the (dead) 'fathers'!
  3. Second Peter is so fundamentally different from I Peter that both letters cannot be from the same author. Evis if I Peter were taken to be authentic, 2 Peter would still have to be considered pseudepigraphical!
So the developed doctrine of inspiration of 2 Pet. 1.20-21 and the disputed reception the 2 Peter experienced in the ancient church (see below 7.4.3) are also indications that the work was written in a later time.

- ibid [emphasis and formatting added - CA]
In brief, what we appear to have is not evidence of Jesus but, rather, strong evidence of pseudepigraphical efforts that in no way require a historical Jesus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
About 7 of Paul's letters are pretty much unqestionably attributed to him and he frequently refers to having met Jesus' immediate followers.
No, he frequently refers to having met those purported to be Jesus' immediate followers.

I make no claim to expertise in this area. In truth, I'm a bit of an agnostic on the historicity question, though I lean towards the affirmative. At the same time, how can you not be struck by the embarrassing absence of 1st-hand accounts? Where do we read, for example, "I asked Jesus and he said ..." or "When Jesus, Miriam, and I were discussing this matter, he said ..."?
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
that there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for many other historical figures whose existence we accept unquestionably--beginning with some of the Roman emperors who were roughly contemporary to Jesus.
The great difference is that none of those figures they appear in the history as divine entities walking on the earth, when something as this is said then the doubts increase exponential and reasonably.
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:21 PM   #23
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That's some fascinating information there, ConsequentAtheist. I was aware of the doubt surround those three letters, but I hadn't had the opportunity to investigate the specific issues in detail yet. If you can tell me who Udo Schnelle is and where you got that information from, I think I may borrow it for discussion on another forum.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ConsequentAtheist
Quote:
About 7 of Paul's letters are pretty much unqestionably attributed to him and he frequently refers to having met Jesus' immediate followers.
No, he [Paul] frequently refers to having met those purported to be Jesus' immediate followers.
Point taken, though Paul believed it, which leads me to believe these men were probably saying that about themselves as well. However, a point I have raised many times is that Paul never displays any knowledge of Jesus' actual life beyond claims of a death and resurrection--knowledge that he certainly should have had had he spent significant time with some of Jesus' closest followers. So yeah, it doesn't look like Paul or his alleged interaction with Jesus' immediate followers are very reliable pieces of evidence. I'll have to conclude then that the evidence for Jesus' existence isn't really all that strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConsequentAtheist
I make no claim to expertise in this area. In truth, I'm a bit of an agnostic on the historicity question, though I lean towards the affirmative. At the same time, how can you not be struck by the embarrassing absence of 1st-hand accounts? Where do we read, for example, "I asked Jesus and he said ..." or "When Jesus, Miriam, and I were discussing this matter, he said ..."?
On that point, I don't find that particularly surprising. There are many historical figures of whom we have no personal writings from, as well as religious figures. In the case of Jesus, whether he existed or not, the early community appears to have believed he was a divine figure and he would be returning very soon. There is little need for recording for posterity and future record the sayings of someone whom you are expecting to return soon. As it became more and more clear that this wasn't the case, the need to start producing written evidence of his sayings, teachings, actions, etc. began to take on more importance.
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:24 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attonitus
The great difference is that none of those figures they appear in the history as divine entities walking on the earth, when something as this is said then the doubts increase exponential and reasonably.
Yes, but as I've said before, the veracity of what is said about Jesus is a very different matter of study than the veracity of whether or not the man actually existed. That I think Jesus existed does not require me to believe everything that has been said about him.

Anyway, I've raised your exact point before as well, when arguing with someone who thinks that because I believe other historical persons existed and I believe Jesus existed, I should also believe the things the early church tells us about Jesus. Logically, that does not follow.
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
That's some fascinating information there, ConsequentAtheist. I was aware of the doubt surround those three letters, but I hadn't had the opportunity to investigate the specific issues in detail yet. If you can tell me who Udo Schnelle is and where you got that information from, I think I may borrow it for discussion on another forum.
I'm sorry, Legion, did the link not work? Udo Schnell is Professor of New Testament in Theology Faculty at Halle in Wittenberg, Germany. The information was, as I noted, extracted from his book. You might also find Kirby's excellent Early Christian Writings valuable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
So yeah, it doesn't look like Paul or his alleged interaction with Jesus' immediate followers are very reliable pieces of evidence. I'll have to conclude then that the evidence for Jesus' existence isn't really all that strong.
In fact, it's pathetically weak and circumstantial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
On that point, I don't find that particularly surprising.
Even in the polemics surrounding the Gentile mission?
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:57 PM   #26
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The rub of a historical Jesus is that there's no reason for why he shouldn't have existed in the same capacity as any other Jewish Messianic Claimant. Its even more (not sure if irony is the word)... odd that so much literature was dedicated to this archetype, and yet the evidence against his existence is all the more compelling BECAUSE of this rather than in spite of it.
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:59 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Legion
Yes, but as I've said before, the veracity of what is said about Jesus is a very different matter of study than the veracity of whether or not the man actually existed. That I think Jesus existed does not require me to believe everything that has been said about him.
Exactly right. But, if I may ask, why do you think that Jesus existed while thinking that "the evidence for Jesus' existence isn't really all that strong"?
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Kafirun
The rub of a historical Jesus is that there's no reason for why he shouldn't have existed in the same capacity as any other Jewish Messianic Claimant. Its even more (not sure if irony is the word)... odd that so much literature was dedicated to this archetype, and yet the evidence against his existence is all the more compelling BECAUSE of this rather than in spite of it.
I do not understand this logic at all. In what way does the literature make "the evidence against his existence ... all the more compelling", and what is this evidence?
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:04 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion
Yes, but as I've said before, the veracity of what is said about Jesus is a very different matter of study than the veracity of whether or not the man actually existed. That I think Jesus existed does not require me to believe everything that has been said about him.

Anyway, I've raised your exact point before as well, when arguing with someone who thinks that because I believe other historical persons existed and I believe Jesus existed, I should also believe the things the early church tells us about Jesus. Logically, that does not follow.
You are sure? Jesus is object no subject of preaching. Doesn't exist any primary source about Jesus. Paul, the Gospels are only theological and late works, no historical works. Jesus doesn't exist in the history.
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:22 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attonitus
The great difference is that none of those figures they appear in the history as divine entities walking on the earth, when something as this is said then the doubts increase exponential and reasonably.
Well, actually, the Roman Emperors were divine entities walking on earth. Or at least, so said their followers after their death
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