David_M

Marshal Applewhite and the 38 others who also committed suicide in the firm belief that Applewhite was correct and they would all be resurrected with a physical form. Ok they probably thought it was 3 1/2 days but that IS a claim of a specific time period.

You lose this debate.

I have provided facts. Ignoring Mark 15 I see, which blew one of your points apart.

I will just note again that YOU have provided no facts from your first post, the core of your argument is that YOU can't understand that people make outrageous claims and therefore any person supposed to have done so is senseless.

As you are obviously incapable of differentiating between an "A and NOT A" debate and a "A lacks sufficient evidence" (no matter hw clearly it is pointed out to you) debate its become obvious it is not worth the effort of responding to you.

I will bow out noting that you have made no substantive response to any objections raised about your proposition.

As you lack the common decency to respond to questions put to you and have started spouting some ridiculous crap about Jesus changing his head I think it is obvious to any lurker that your argument lacks any rigorous support.

aa5874

Marshall Applewhite and the Heaven's Gate cult is an excellent example of how the Jesus story should have ended if he was indeed human.

The bodies of Marshall Applewhite and his followers were found rotting, that is exactly what I expected of the body of Jesus.

Marshall Applewhite was horrible news, I expected Jesus to be just as bad.

Jesus was killed, buried, he did not resurrect as predicted. The disciples went into hiding and maybe later committed suicide. If Jesus human that is what I expect.

But, the NT and the Church writers claimed Jesus did resurrect. It must be obvious that Jesus was not regarded as human.

Jesus was no Marshall Applewhite. Jesus was considered fully God and man.

I cannot lose the debate.

You have given me exactly what I needed, Marshall Applewhite. After he and his followers commmitted suicide, there was no GOOD NEWS. It was all HORRIBLE NEWS.

The Heaven's Gate cult was destroyed because Marshall Applewhite could not resurrect.

You have ALREADY put forward Marshall Applewhite and the 38 who committed suicide and that they failed to resurrect.

It is all over for you.

This could have been the story of Jesus and his twelve disciples if he was human, but the writers claimed he resurrected and that Jesus was GOOD news.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

Thanks to Marshal Applewhite, we now know what is the outcome of those who predict their own resurrection. The NEWS will be HORRIBLE.

Their bodies may be found rotting.

Toto

Would you like to declare victory and retire?

aa5874

Not at all. There is more horrible news for HJers.

I did not start this thread to declare any victory but to put forward the theory that the HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition.

If Jesus was human, the Jesus story should have ended after he died and was buried similar to Marshall Applewhite.

No-one with any credibility dares claim that Marshall Applewhite and the 38 rotting corpse resurrected but the disciples of THE SO-CALLED Jesus who ran away when he was arrested and were in hiding when the body of Jesus vanished CLAIMED, based on the NT and Church writers, that they had GOOD NEWS about Jesus for the Gentiles and the Jews.

IF Jesus was human, after three days, it was likely that his dead body would begin to rot.

It was the Jews and the Gentiles who had HORRIBLE NEWS for the disciples if they could find their hiding place.

This is Mary the sister of Lazarus who was dead for 4 days.
Joh 11:39 - Lazarus was dead for four days and was already rotting, Jesus should have also have begun to rot if he was human.

The HJ is a most SENSELESS proposition. There is no Gospel story with an HJ only a ROTTEN story.

aa5874

But, it simply makes no sense for Jesus to speak in parables to the multitudes since as soon as he ascends to heaven, Peter, Paul and the rest of the disciples will explain everything to the very multitude so that they can see, hear and easily understand exactly what Jesus refused to explain.

Can it be imagined what the multitude would think of Jesus when Peter told them the reason why Jesus spoke to them in parables.

Matthew 13:13 - Jesus did not care about the Jewish multitudes, he has an "over my dead body" attitude. Once Jesus was human and died, the Jews would certainly see, hear and understand that Jesus was a fraud.

arnoldo

This theory that you are proposing makes sense. In fact it is plausible that there was a historical Jesus who in fact died; causing his disciples to invent a story about a resurrection to keep the movement alive.

storytime

"Everything is exactly the way God has always wanted it to be."

But of course. A god for the hebrews alone. Now, where can we find information on all the other gods and what they were telling their people? Seems we're lacking comparisons.

storytime

Well, I think it speaks strongly of deception. Otherwise Jesus would have delivered "the mysteries" of the kingdom to everyone instead of his chosen disciples. But, his god had preordained, pre-destined those to whom he would have as His people - in merciful forgiveness, and those who were not preordained, predistined as His people were damned. Example is provided in Jacob and Esau. God loved Jacob and hated Esau[Edomites] forever. Nothing could be done to change this pre-arranged situation. So when Jesus deceived the multitude through parables, he did so with intentional dimiss.

Jesus also excluded Gentiles. "I am sent to none but the lost sheep in the house of Israel." House of Israel being sons of Jacob. Note that none in the house of Jacob are Gentile, none are of Edomites, etc. So again, the deceitfulness of Jesus was an intentional act of exclusion based on his prior knowledge of who was supposed to inherit the kingdom of God and who was not. The New Jerusalem of Jesus also examples who is who in the kingdom. All are sons of Jacob which measures the kingdom in 12 tribal names. None are of Esau[Edomites].

Were Gentiles deceived? Yes. But by whom? Jesus or Peter?

aa5874

Well, if you believe that my theory makes sense, then the historical Jesus is implausible.

Please show how it is plausible for the supposed disciples of Jesus to have invented a credible or believeable resurrection story under the following conditions:

1. The disciples ran away when Jesus arrested.

2. Peter denied he knew Jesus after he (Jesus) was arrested.

3. The disciples were in hiding, they have no direct contact with Jesus.

4. The third day after the death of Jesus, when visitors go to the burial site to anoint the dead body, there is nothing. The dead body has vanished.


Peter, the supposed 1st bishop of Rome, has serious problems he had already LIED or denied that he knows Jesus, how can he now tell the very same people that Jesus resurrected?

The supposed 1st bishop of Rome does not know who removed the body of Jesus or where the body is located. The bishop is trapped or doomed.

He would immediately be known as a liar, and the so-called bishop of Rome would have died for a known lie that he invented.

The resurrection invention makes no sense at all.

kcdad

Herein lies the problem with the fundamentalist way of thinking... ALL OR NOTHING.
Mark may be rather historical, and even factual. Mark's authenticity says nothing about Matthew and Luke's. Matt and Luke obviously used Mark as a source and relied upon other sources as well (the sayings or Thomas or some else indicated by the name "Q".(Star Trek fans, anyone?) John is out there, it is a theological work, not a historical or biographical one. There is no narrative to John. To suggest that it is all or nothing ignores how history, and human are constructed. We build upon the past, and upon past interpretations of the past. Often times our interpretations alter the facts in order to make more universal declarations about us. (Paul uses "the Christos", for example to explain this to polytheistic and pagan Greeks and Romans. There is nothing remotely Christ-like in the Jewish concept of Messiah.)

If Jesus were not human, the entire sacrifice, sinless life, monotheism thing is meaningless... see how that works? So Jesus becomes this god-human with supernatural powers that we can also have... show me! Show me one person who can walk on water, heal by laying on hands, raise the dead or resurrect them self from the dead.