Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-06-2008, 10:48 AM

Here's a criteria I see used, but rarely discussed: Does the proposed datum give every evidence of having been invented to support a particular political or theological requirement of the historian?

So the claims that "George Washington wrote a prayer book and/or knelt in prayer" is used by theocratic advocates in the US, but contemporary evidence indicates that both of these claims are false. Would you be justified in doubting the historicity of similar claims, even if you did not have contemporary evidence against them?

There are also claims that just seem obviously not historical. For instance, Josephus' claim that as a young boy, he astounded his elders with his wisdom. And the similar scene in Luke where Jesus astounded the elders in the Temple. I don't see a clear reason to reject the historicity of either of these events from your criteria, other than normal skepticism.

gstafleu · 08-06-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Here's a criteria I see used, but rarely discussed: Does the proposed datum give every evidence of having been invented to support a particular political or theological requirement of the historian?

I suspect that this is rather close to my proposed "does it fit the mythology" criterion, be it that you focus on the individual author.

Gerard Stafleu

Ben C Smith · 08-06-2008, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Here's a criteria I see used, but rarely discussed: Does the proposed datum give every evidence of having been invented to support a particular political or theological requirement of the historian?

So the claims that "George Washington wrote a prayer book and/or knelt in prayer" is used by theocratic advocates in the US, but contemporary evidence indicates that both of these claims are false.

I did not know that those claims were false, BTW. (I am not a theocrat in any political sense, either.) Thanks.

The question I have here is: What is evidence of having been invented? I want to believe you when you say that Washington did not kneel in prayer (is this the famous depiction of him at Valley Forge?). But without contemporary evidence to the contrary (which you say we have, and which I am not disputing), how would we know? It seems just as possible a priori that Washington did kneel in prayer, and modern theocrats seize upon that as support for their position. Likewise, those who argue for a wall of separation between church and state (myself included) do not have to invent that quote from Jefferson; he wrote it. And it supports my own position every bit as much as Washington kneeling in prayer supports what you are calling the theocratic position.

Quote:

There are also claims that just seem obviously not historical. For instance, Josephus' claim that as a young boy, he astounded his elders with his wisdom. And the similar scene in Luke where Jesus astounded the elders in the Temple. I don't see a clear reason to reject the historicity of either of these events from your criteria, other than normal skepticism.

Perhaps a combination of plausibility and heroic trope?

Ben.

Ben C Smith · 08-06-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

It seems to me that there's a tendency for the historicity criteria in HJ research to be sui generis. If one is going to do these criteria right, I'd like to see them applied to other cases, e.g., Mohammed, William Tell, Apollonius of Tyana, Gamaliel, Theudas, the "Egyptian," Hercules, Paul, Marcion, Tatian, King Arthur, etc.

100% agreed.

Ben.

mountainman · 08-06-2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

It seems to me that there's a tendency for the historicity criteria in HJ research to be sui generis. If one is going to do these criteria right, I'd like to see them applied to other cases, e.g., Mohammed, William Tell, Apollonius of Tyana, Gamaliel, Theudas, the "Egyptian," Hercules, Paul, Marcion, Tatian, King Arthur, etc.

100% agreed.

Ben.

comparitive historicity (Apollonius of Tyana c.f. Jesus of Nazareth)

Best wishes

Pete

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08-06-2008, 10:48 AM	#21
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Here's a criteria I see used, but rarely discussed: Does the proposed datum give every evidence of having been invented to support a particular political or theological requirement of the historian? So the claims that "George Washington wrote a prayer book and/or knelt in prayer" is used by theocratic advocates in the US, but contemporary evidence indicates that both of these claims are false. Would you be justified in doubting the historicity of similar claims, even if you did not have contemporary evidence against them? There are also claims that just seem obviously not historical. For instance, Josephus' claim that as a young boy, he astounded his elders with his wisdom. And the similar scene in Luke where Jesus astounded the elders in the Temple. I don't see a clear reason to reject the historicity of either of these events from your criteria, other than normal skepticism.

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