Plognark

This thread makes more sense in the Non-Abrahamic religion forum, I think. Off it goes.

whichphilosophy

Anoether generalised unspecific post. So in specifics how were they insane then? I hear this recited sometimes by people when they start the discusion. I think since you don't like Christianity you are pre biased anyway, hence anti religious. You've just said it not me.

In extreme cases this is an anti religious fanatic which is no different from a religious fanatic.

As for my self who hasn't done courses for years, I'm not interested what people do or believe but I do know when statements are biased or groundless and devoid of indefeasible logic and reason.

And what do you mean by mentally damaged?

Ponzi

whichphilosophy, I know you've probably answered this question a lot in the past, but I would like to know whether all that stuff about thetans and spaceships and whatnot is what Scientology really teaches. Did you hear about this stuff when you were active in Scientology?

lisarea

Well, you do have to be an Operating Thetan (OT), Level 8 according to this , before you can kill people with your thoughts. That would cost many tens of thousands of dollars, at least, and you have to be fully brainwashed before you get to that point, anyway.

And I actually do have copies of the Fishman papers around here somewhere, but no, I can't link to online versions of the text, seeing as how the CoS has gone to such great lengths to suppress it. As well they should.

Trademarks? You mean trade secrets? They claim their doctrine as 'trade secrets' so they can try to prevent it from becoming public knowledge, so they can charge people tens of thousands of dollars for accessing it before they actually know what it consists of, and so they can threaten and intimidate their critics.

Just as an example, we wouldn't want anyone seeing shit about the "Hoipolloi, a group of operators in meat body societies," whose uniform was a "pink-striped white shirt with sleeve garters". It would be terrible, really, if anyone were to, say, copy and paste those fair use quotes of publically available information into Google, thus finding links to some of the SECRET TEACHINGS OF SCIENTOLOGY.

Because then, people would find out that scientology is nothing but a bunch of really bad science fiction with a really stupid, evil cult built up around it.

I believe they make you hold an "e-meter," which is basically a couple of tin cans strung together with wire or something, up to your head, in order to do readings of the body thetans that are stuck onto you or something like. They also sometimes withhold food, water, outside stimulus, etc., and they require you to give them a whole lot of money.

Other than that, yeah, it's just like catechism or whatever, I'm sure.

Why did you even ask that question? Seems kind of a weird thing to bring up if you're looking to establish credibility or anything.

whichphilosophy

I’ll try and be brief and no intent is to preach convert or slip you a membership form (considering I haven’t done anything for 19 years).

The problem is that the Internet as well as being an asset for information will carry false information for years after it is found to be invalid.

The Fishman Papers were totally discredited by an investigation. I also don’t have these. He was not even a member of the organization but has a long criminal history of deception and blamed the C of S for his criminal actions. The C of S legal department if you wish to investigate and they will probably quote the justice and police records relating to this. Then its up to you to judge whether you see the records after and not before.

So do you have any evidence of its members go around killing people with their thoughts. (I have been told my ugly looks kill people).

Sure Trademarks and Trade secrets is an interchangeable term. Much of the upper levels are in fact in the books, which are available in their bookshops. I think it has the right to prevent people from stealing these and altering the processes for instance. When this is done, guess who gets the blame.

In fact a group of people were involved in the theft of these documents and attempted to set up private organizations.

Also here are some answers in these documents which the person will arrive observation and study and why give these answers in advance.

If we give a history student the answers to the exam, did he really attain his pass in history? Would that not be charging the student money for a false pass?

In brief past lives has always been a topic of study and sure some strange things seem to be remembers.

As for the e-meter there are, two cans attached to electrodes and the person holds the cans.

There’s a useful drill where the operator learns how to tell someone’s birthday (and no peeping at the date written on the person’s paper. Nothing is magical about it it’s just learning what it reads on. True it seems mysterious and strange because this is an entirely new concept.

The courses and therapy are very expensive when seeing these come up in lights. Paying for these was not such a problem. The argument would be that a person in gaining more confidence and being able to deal more with problem solving would find increasing their earnings as not a problem. This is true from personal experience. The problem seems to be getting the time to do these.

Actually when I met people in the past, this subject was not a problem and I did not encounter hostility. At the end of the day people will judge others by the way they treat them.

If someone withholds food or whatever from another in demand for money that is a criminal act which could possibly constitute kidnapping because the person be have food withheld from him or her would be classed as imprisoned. Serious crimes. If this were true the C of S would be an illegal organization, which it is not.

In the late 1970’s I saw some data from the legal department (Scn) released under the Freedom of Information Act. There were unsubstantiated reports of Scn members shooting family and friends and some generalized reports etc, quite funny really.

whichphilosophy

I have been asked before on these posts, but not so politely. :wave:

Sure, From personal experience (memory recall) this would be the case, though I did not do the upper levels. In simplicity it is therapy that goes past lives. I'm not pushing this as fact but just saying this is what happens.

I think how this came about was incidental. Dianetics used to go to prebirth experiences. Then some people felt they remembered things from earlier. Rather than tell the person they were wrong, the therapy continued.

A basic principle of the therapy is to find out about the person from the person, so it is against the code of practice for the practitioner to make the person wrong.

Itrs not regarded as important if they did live 200 years ago but that they improved after the therapy. Noone can tell if this is true except the subject from their own perspective.

Say a person had psychotic tendancies and after going back to incidents of experiencing this goes back in time, beyond this life, but afterwards they are not psychotic, do we hit the person over the head for saying such an unacceptable thing or do we look at the person and appreciate that they are no longer going around whacking people or the person has resolved other problems and are doing better in their jobs lives or whatever.

What we forget in therapy is whether the person improves not just whether or not we agree with the method which is easy to forget.

Now it's also just as bad for someone who's done this sort of therapy to say the person who does not believe him/her that they are wrong, because how can they be expected to believe this without doing this stuff. However a person does have a right to object to infringments on their rights to do this sort of therapy. My apologies for being long winded speech.

RussianM3_dude

A lot of people (this person included) admit being unhappy (depressed) feeling like the world was crazy (Bi-polar) or just plain udmittting they had a mental ilnnes. Please refer to the thread in General "I debated an Insane cultists" The ramblings of the Scientologist are all pasted there.

lisarea

I'm not sure where you get the idea they've been 'discredited.' If you mean an 'investigation' by the CoS itself, you've got to be kidding.

The Fishman papers were originally sealed because the CoS claimed they were trade secrets (a very different thing from trademark, BTW), belonging to them. And as I said pretty clearly, I DO have a copy of the Fishman papers around here somewhere.

Further, I am familiar with the CoS legal department, and no, I will not be contacting them for their stance on any issues anytime soon.

In fact, on the subject of their legal department, I received a cease and desist letter from Helena Kobrin for discussing the content of the Fishman papers many years ago. In that letter, she claimed that the materials I was discussing were trade secrets owned by the Church of Scientology. Were they lying then, or are they lying now? Or both?

You know very well I never claimed that they can actually do this. They claim to be able to do this. Of course they can't.

Oh, please feel free to share the titles of the books available in their bookshops that contain information on the OT levels. I'll go look them up.

I am very surprised to see you claim this exists.

I hope they play really loud theramin music and have a lot of sciencey stuff around, like Van der Graff generators. That would be cool.

Not really sure what you mean by an 'illegal organization.' It is not currently 'illegal' in the US, no. It was and possibly still is illegal in Germany, but the US is not that big on declaring entire organizations illegal.

I never said they withheld food and water in demand for money, either, BTW. Please read carefully, and if you don't understand, feel free to ask for clarification.

Oh, yes. That sounds hilarious.

Here's another laff riot for you.

Killer Mike

I remember once being invited to attend a church from someone I knew at work. I did not know he was a scientologist. I was given a tour of their building and told about Ron Hubbard. I was told about some crazy stuff called "engrams" and that I needed to "clear" all those engrams. They showed me a room where the walls were covered black and there was a strobe light in the center and a couple of chairs. I was told this is where my engrams would be removed or "cleared".

I said that I needed to use the rest room and as I entered I saw a "member" looking into the bathrooms' mirror. He had a blank stare in his eyes, almost like he was a zombie. Apparently he just had one of those "sessions" to clear an engram.

By now I knew I had to get out of this crazy place! As the tour proceeded I played dumb and acted like I was truely interested in their bullshit, so I asked what would I need to do to get rid of all those engrams. I was told it would take several sessions and it would cost me some bank ($$$). As the tour was ending and as we approached the exit door, there was a table with books, tapes, cd's, pamphlets, for sale.

I remember getting into my car, just being thankful of getting out of there!!
These people are fuckin nuts I said to myself. Needless to say I never went back. I avoided my co-worker after that too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW I just wonder how much money this Ron Hubbard makes off of these crazy fools? He probably has a Benz or a Lexus in his driveway.

Grizzly

But that's part of the problem, isn't it? You don't get to learn about the principles without paying for it first. Christianity, for example, allows me to read virtually anything I want free of charge. Why does scientology charge increasingly larger sums of money to get information?