ApostateAbe

OK, that's fine. So, how would you describe the context concerning Jewish messianic expectations? Edit JonA's lines just enough so that they work for you, and fill in the blanks. JonA is looking for mythicist explanations of the evidence, and so am I.

JonA

Your explanation can be as complex as you'd like. Feel free to change up some of my wording as well.

If you can give explanations to even the more general stuff, I'd much appreciate your insight.

Details can be fought over later.

Jon

Zenaphobe

How does one explain Mormonism without Moroni?

I see some parallels between the founding of Christianity and Mormonism.

The both have a charismatic founder- Paul - Joseph Smith

They both arise from previously established religions- Judaism - Christianity

Both are tethered to a claim of a revelation which "corrects" the errors of the host religion- Damascus road - Smith's communion with Moroni

They both arise and thrive among persecution and shunning by the host religion.

They both deviate from the theology of their predecessors but do not reject them.

How is it possible that a movement as successful as the Latter Day Saints could have gotten started based on the personal revelations claimed by Smith concerning an angel and some golden tablets which were never seen by anyone else?

If Smith didn't need a real Moroni to launch the LDS movement, why would Paul need a real Jesus to do begin Christianity?

If the Mormons had gained control of the political and religious realms of the United States and were able to suppress opposing views and promote their own in a manner like the Catholic church, people who questioned the historicity of Moroni and the golden tablets would probably be though of as fringe elements.

Maybe I'm off in left field somewhere with this? Be gentle. :grin:

discordant

I'm not a mythicist, but I'll try my hand at this.

Before someone had visions of the Christ and gathered followers, [an uncertain number of] Messianic Jews believed the Messiah was to be a king who raised an army, expelled the foreign rulers from Israel, and established Jewish reign in the region. (Some variations exist.)

After someone had visions of the Christ and gathered followers, a small group of Messianic Jews believed the Messiah was not a king; he did not raise an army; he did not expel the foreign rulers from Israel; he did not establish Jewish reign in the region. Instead, [based on a “decoding” of the Septuagint,] he was [believed to have been] a peasant; he had a rather small following (even if many people 'supposedly' knew about him); he was executed by the foreign rulers (Romans); he was resurrected; he ascended into heaven with a promise to return and fulfill all of [some of what are assumed to be] the traditional Messianic expectations.

ApostateAbe

I think that is a great start. Fill in the rest of the blanks in the OP, if you feel up to it and you have the time.

ApostateAbe

I think that may be getting into different-topic territory, which JonA is discouraging, but there are a lot of great points and issues there that I would love to talk about. I think I'll start a thread on LDS beginnings vs. Christian beginnings so we can talk about this stuff. In this thread, try filling in the blanks in the OP. Edit the lines if you don't agree with them.

RareBird

The mythology of Jesus makes perfect sense to me as a non-supernatural being who may never have existed at all. Discount all of the "miracles" as heaped on embellishments that people probably added on. And discount anything that is believe to have been "said" by Jesus--there have been so many translations and so many liberties taken you can't trust any verbiage. So now that we got what was "said" out of the way, let's just concentrate on the mean of what was believed to have been done.

Jesus Christ was a MAN. He was a man who questioned. He was a man who saw injustice and that injustice was concentrated in two great powers which lorded over his people--the Jewish aristocracy and the Roman Empire. Jesus, like any brilliant man able to step out of his own time and reason on the highest individual level, chose to dissent from the prevailing beliefs and authorities and lead his direct contemporaries into a new "modernity"--a "fellowship" of faith in the goodness in other persons IF THOSE PERSONS DO NOT YIELD THE WORTH to the prevailing forces of greed and control.

Jesus was not about replacing one worship with another--that is only how his story has been bastardized by the same impulses and forces Jesus rose against. ALL MEM MUST DIE. Jesus asked why should I die a nobody on bended knee to a power I had no place in negotiating into place? He looked around and saw territorialism, fear and power moving mankind forward toward something which must inevitably end. Powers killing powers until no one is left. He reasoned, what if we give each other faith? What if we extend some measure of trust first before assuming the worst? What would happen over the ages if we cease this thing called hierarchy and achieve a living spirituality? What could we accomplish? Would our kind end? Would we kill each other? Or would we discover that there is a world of potential obscured behind even the most unlikeliest of appearances?

People did not have to forsake their belief as a condition to see that Jesus was a man who tried to get men off their knees and on the ball. Power being what it is won the battle over him by way of his crucifixion but the war still rages on and can still be won. It is when we all find a way to get off our knees and get on the ball that the light of the world will never be snuffed out and mankind will fulfill its promise.

Romans then co-opted Jesus message and did absolutely everything that Jesus was against. They became the Roman Catholic Church, wrapped in gold and took over the white world with insidious cruelty that has kept good men and women on their knees and off the ball ever since.

None of this is exactly true because I know it to be. But it could certainly be. Who's to say? Christianity has been co-opted and perverted since day one. I "believe" the real intent is all within the realm of nature--not super-nature--and it's about human beings overcoming the animal impulse to subordinate other people into being mindless soldiers who do the will of others without question--and help each other up instead of pushing each other down.

ApostateAbe

Zenaphobe, I made a thread for you:

Is Jesus more like the Angel Moroni or Joseph Smith?

JonA

Thank you for your input.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that Paul entirely (or mostly) invented Christianity, no?

If so, I have a couple of questions.

If so, why do you suppose that he would have done this? Also, how would you reconcile this with the evidence suggesting not only that there were other Christian groups around at the time of Paul that he didn't found, but that these groups didn't agree with Paul's theology at all?

I'm not disagreeing with you; but I would like some clarification.

Jon

aa5874

"Explaining Christianity WITHOUT Jesus"

Do you really understand what you have written?

You want people to explain "Christianity WITHOUT the "Historical Jesus".

Do you understand that "Christianity WITHOUT the "Historical Jesus" is "Christianity WITH a NON-historical Jesus".

Your OP is actually asking people to EXPLAIN "Christianity WITH MJ" (Christianity without Jesus).

But look at what you wrote later.

You don't even understand your own OP.

You have ONLY presumed that Christianity was WITH AN actual Jesus.

Well, please read the NT, the Church writings and the non-apologetic sources of the 1st century because they have EXPLAINED QUITE CLEARLY that CHRISTIANITY was WITHOUT JESUS.

MJers have NOTHING to EXPLAIN.

Please EXPLAIN Christianity WITH an actual REAL JESUS.

When was Christianity WITH an ACTUAL REAL Jesus?

Which ANCIENTWRITER EXPLAINED Christianity WITH an ACTUAL REAL Jesus?

Look at Matthew 1.18, Luke 1.26-35, John 1.1-4 and Galatians 1.1-12.

They all EXPLAIN Christianity WITHOUT an ACTUAL REAL Jesus.

I cannot FIND any credible source of antiquity which mention Christianity WITH Jesus.

You have MERELY PRESUMED Christianity was WITH JESUS.

Do some research and you will find that the very written evidence from antiquity EXPLAINS that CHRISTIANITY STARTED WITHOUT JESUS in the 2nd century.