comradeBillyboy

follow-up
seriously, henry, i am a gun owner and a veteran. i would resist foreign occupation violently.

was finland justified in resisting the soviet union? i think so. i suspect that after world war 2 finland maintained its independence, despite being allied with germany(the continuation war i think its called in finland), because the finns had demonstrated their willingness to fight for their freedom.

by the way, i visited finland a few years ago. what a lovely place. really enjoyed helsinki

Henry-Finland

First of all, this thread is not only about Iraq.

About Iraq:
After discussing this same question also at other boards, also an Iraqi one, I have come to the conclusion that the Iraqis should wait, (should have waited), until the elections and look what’s happening.
But I also understand some Iraqis. They were not informed how it would work, no plan about how to win a peace, not a timeline about when, or on what conditions, US and others would withdraw etc.

In Palestine they have waited since 1967.

In Estonia, after the WWII, there was a bunch of rebellions called “metsämiehet�?, the “forestmen�?. They put up a resistance for years and was finally all caught in the 80’ties, IIRC.
A Finnish communist, Veli Tuominen, tells in one of his books why the ‘legal parliament’ acted as it did, when it voted 100% for joining Soviet Union:
The Dogs of Stalin took every Estonian MP aside and told them: “If You do not vote as we say, we do not kill You, but all Your relatives�? , and then handed over the list of relatives. They knew they could not live with that.
Just want to say that people has to determine themselves, if their government is legal or not.

All in all, I see that the small countries has only one way of keeping the powerful outside: easily moved equipment and a readiness to continue, or in fact, to really begin the fighting when the occupating army is inside. To try to make the invasion costly for the invader is just something You do out of old memory. The occupyer begins to pay heavily when he (or in reality his home-folks), believes that the war is ‘won’.

comradeBillyboy wrote:
Yeah, but W’s holy crusade should not mess around on the west side of Eufrat.
That part, to the Nile, God has promised the Zionists. Ask St George, if You do not believe me!

comradeBillyboy wrote further:
I hereby declare You as My Brother.
You can use Your new title in all official as well as unofficial events.


comradeBillyboy:
Next time You visit this side of the northern hemisphere, You will hopefully visit also me and my tribe here at our island. We will go fishing together.

Henry, Your Brother
________________________________

comradeBillyboy:
A small rant about this:
We have always had crazy or/and doomed allies. Through history, our allies has always been destroyed!:
- with Germany 1918 (WW I), we killing each other
- No-one 1939 (The Winter War, against Josef, 110 days and nights just killing everything that moved.)
- with Nazi-Germany (The Continuous War 1941 - 1944, against Josef)
- No-one (The War in Lapland 1944 - 1945), against Adolf
- After that we made agreement with Josef

Now some politicians want us to ally with USA (NATO). If You look what have happened with our former allies..., well, every single one of them has gone down the drain. (sigh!) So now USA is next on the list.
Just because I like my friends in USA, I do not like the idea that NATO takes us as partners.

We have never won a war, not won anything, except the most important: our Freedom. Sometimes our freedom has been relative freedom, but we have built on. The result everuone can see by him/herself.
Never been occupied. There is no so stupid nation, not even in Europe, that would like to live as our guests.


We have always won The Peace!, and that’s nice.

Just to put this rant in some frame, if we speak about USA or Israel (fighting against them as an occupying power, goes for them too, in my book anyhow):
- Everyone can start a war, that is not the hard thing. Just flag-waving, some anthems and stupid speeches.
And see how the people is glad that it can send its daughters and sons to die in a foreign country!
- Patriotism is when You love and defend Your country.
- Nationalism is when You try to export Your ideas, values, (and some idiots; also religion), babbling about “national interests�?, their national interests, like it was a mantra, like there would not be any other nation(s) involved with any “interests�?.

Conclusion, when You defend Your boarders:
- Do what Your officer tells You to do.
- If Your officer tells You to cross Your border, shoot him.
That is how Peace is won. Never cross Your boarder.
Just tell Your officer that You shoot anyone that comes across the boarder, but there goes the line. (Tell that only after that they have given You enough arms).
We did once go beyond our borders, we did this mistake once and paid, and are still paying for it by losing some parts of Karelia.

Now, if UN decide to “put away�? an oppressor, to give all rights to the people of a country:
- There should be a time-line, e.g. “Six month after Your election, we will leave/we will give the power to the new police/national guard etc.�?.
- The UN-soldiers should be taught the culture, some lingua etc., of the freed country, not just acting like cocky roosters, standing on the heap of rubble they have created.
- If there is “national interests�? in a foreign country, You use the Free-Trade-thinking, You buy what You need, You pay for it just as everyone else, You do not loot it out and decorate Yourself with medals for looting!

End of rant. Thank You!


Henry

comradeBillyboy

henry, am honored to be your brother

thanks with all my heart

Liberal

Yes they have that right.

Let's hope it escalates into nuclear war one day. Keep fucking around with the United States.

Dragon

Very good and all, but the war is over! We are trying to rebuild now -- literally rebuild: repair infrastructure and buildings and put in a government so that civil war doesn't break out. Undermining these efforts helps noone! For the U.S., it wastes money and increases the time we must be in Iraq, and for the Iraqi insurgents, it increases the time the U.S. is in Iraq and delays them having an actual country.

I think people make an over-generalization about occupation. "Oh no, someone's in my country I must find my old shotgun and immediately shoot the troops!" I'd support such a thing if it was say, crusaders, or if it were Nazis that were the invaders, but the U.S. didn't go in to Iraq to get a new area -- jeeze we were getting bored with our old borders! -- they went in for WMDs, sure they didn't find any, and that's bad judgement on the part of our govt, but that's not justification to shoot them, especially if we want to get out but can't.

The fact is, many of you who say "I'd go shoot at them" are thinking Nazis or communists or crusaders, or something like that, but, guess what: The nazis/communists/crusaders whatever, would want to take over and annex your country. But we, the U.S., don't. We want to get out but, BEHOLD! we can't because if we did their would be a civil war and Iran 2 would be created, which would be definitely worse than the current situation.

Liberal

They are too caught up in the "war was bad so let's watch America lose and accordingly the Iraqi people lose and descend into an Islamic fundamentalist state."

It's not that they want the terrorists to win. It's more that they want America to lose.

rationalOne

Who is "They"?

Liberal

Take a guess.

rationalOne

You read a lot of Ann Coulter?

Liberal

No actually I've never read any material by her.