Orion_Man

Mark does indeed read like a novel.

The author of Mark leads you down this path in search of answers but at the end of the day you're left to figure out the meaning to each story for yourself.It's no surprise that Mark ends his gospel with the women finding the empty tomb.It's kind of like the way the sopranos ended if you follow me.If Mark was writing history he would have told us what happened and not left us in a cliff hanger,which he does through out the gospel.

bacht

What about the Little Apocalypse in ch 13, is this a clue or key to the author's intent, ie a commentary on the fall of the temple or messianic expectation in general? Would this relate to the use of Son of Man as an allusion to Daniel? (this title never appears in the epistles, which are also apocalyptic)

In Mark the demons know who Jesus is even though no-one else recognizes him (the "messianic secret"). This Christ fails to evoke a suitable reaction from contemporaries, even his own companions. Pilate labels him King of the Jews, an obviously satirical jibe. Does Mark mean that Jewish obsession with messiahs ("anointed ones") is completely misguided? Is he saying something about political aspirations, endorsing the pre-Hellenistic theocracy?

[sorry, I find Mark fascinating]

PhilosopherJay

Hi Ben,

I think hyperbole is hyperbole, but in this case, we may be dealing with a subspecies of hyperbole: ironic hyperbole.

There is perhaps always a little bit of irony in hyperbole, but here, there seems to be a kind of self consciousness that makes the exaggeration itself the point, and implies something different than what it is apparently saying.

For example, I say, "When I was younger I could run faster than a cheetah," I'm using hyperbole, but not being ironic. I'm just saying I could run very fast when I was younger.

On the other hand, when a waitress receives a small tip and says, "Thanks, now I'm richer than king Midas," she's using hyperbole in an ironic manner.

It seems to me that ironic hyperbole is often used to end a fiction tale. For example, the phrase, "And they lived happily ever after," is ironic hyperbole. Underlying it is the idea that we (writer and reader) both know that life is full of troubles, but since we have described so many troubles for our characters, let us pretend that they will have no more. Thus there are no more problems to resolve and we can close our tale.

The sentence that ends John (21.25) "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" is also meant as ironic hyperbole.

Its sense is that people have written an infinite number of things that Jesus didn't do. It implies that not only are other works about Jesus fictional, but this one is too.

It does not suggest that Jesus was fictional, but only that all the works about him were or are.

I guess the interpretation depends on if we see the writer as being ironic here or not.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay


[QUOTE=Ben C Smith;5736050]

Jeffrey Gibson

I wonder, Jay, if you would be kind enough to do two things:

1. demonstrate by producing some Hellenistic discussion of forms of speech that "ironic hyperbole" is something that Hellenistic authors recognized as a literary topos.

2. provide us with some samples from the writings of Hellenistic authors of their actual use of "ironic hyperbole" so that we could see whether or not Jn 21:25 is materially, formally, syntactically, and linguistically a parallel to these examples, as we could/should expect it would be if indeed it is what you say it is and, more importantly, was intended by its author to be recognized as such.

Jeffrey

Amaleq13

Even for the region in which the story takes place? He's on a mountain, you know.

Assumes your conclusion, doesn't it?

"only reason"? It seems directly connected to his invitation for them to sit down.

If one starts with a conclusion and then procedes to search only for confirming evidence of that conclusion, one is likely to find just what one wants. Unfortunately, this is certainly not a reliable method for reaching a sound conclusion.

gstafleu

Isn't the growing season in that region the winter, the summer being too dry? If so I'd say grass would indeed be tall in March.

Gerard Stafleu

Jeffrey Gibson

Ask Pat. He's the one who is claiming to be an expert on the horticulture of ancient Israel and, in particular, of the hill country that the author of Jn 6 locates the feeding episode in.

It may be. But the issue is whether there is any linguistic justification for saying that the Greek adjective used in conjunction with the Greek word that is translated as "grass" meant "tall" -- an issue which Pat keeps dodging.

Do you know of any?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

I have raised with Jay the (as yet unanwered) question about whether Hellenistic writers knew of, let alone recognized, or ever actually employed, the form of speech that Jay calls "ironic hyperbole"

FWIW, here's an author who denies that there's any such thing in English as "ironic hyperbole".

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0094038AAhIoJ1


Jeffrey

Toto

Which of those anonymous "authors" do you cite as an authority?

Jeffrey Gibson

Where ever did I speak of or cite any of the authors there as being "an authority"?

Jeffrey