RUmike

Iasion--

Does a single quote you posted explicitly support a Jesus that was never on Earth, as Doherty's MJ theory entails? All the passages cited about his coming or birth "in the flesh" accord with arguing against docetic views, which we know existed for many years. But docetics still believed Jesus the divine spirit existed on Earth and purported to be an actual person.

RUmike

The hypothetical MJ sect I proposed would be those that adhered to Doherty's theory of MJ, since the MJ that the OP talked about was Doherty's.

Because that's what the post is about! Doherty's MJ. I didn't choose the topic, the OP did. jjramsey and I were essentially saying, "if Doherty is right about his MJ, why don't we ever hear about that sect ever again?" (permitting I haven't misrepresented jjramsey's opinion).

spin

It is a false dichotomy between "not in this world" and "mythical".

The people who are arguing for a mythical approach don't say that ancients thought that their faith was myth. Nobody whose faith we now call myth was myth to the believer. This would be insane... and inane. Yesterday's religions are today's myths.


spin

RUmike

I realize this. I just use MJ=Mythical Jesus to mean a Jesus who was "not of this world", i.e. Doherty's Jesus. I don't mean the word "mythical" literally. I thought this was the common usage when referring to Doherty's theory.

spin

Well, how does one discern between those who followed the notion of the Docetae from those who may have supported "Doherty's Jesus"?

A heresy appears only when an idea that exists needs to be dealt with. This means an idea can be prevalent in a section of a religious community without problem until it needs to be dealt with. The similar substance v same substance debate was a long one which only came to the fore when the distinction needed to be dealt with. Before then the belief was happily held by who knows how many?


spin

Steven Carr

2 John 1:7.

Paul preached to the Corinthians a Christ crucified, and warned them about people preaching a different Jesus.

What were the different Jesus's to the Jesus crucified that Paul preached about?

Steven Carr

RuMike wants to show that docetists believed Jesus was born on earth, raised in Nazareth, ate, wept, was touched by disciples , while just being a spirit.

Where is his evidence that absolutely all docetists accepted the basic Gospel outline, while only denying that Jesus had real flesh?

Iasion

The distinction is between :
* a normal physical human being Jesus
vs
* a spiritual, non-physical Jesus from some higher realm.

It seems to me that Christians who believed in a phantasm, a spirit, or an illusion are supporting a spiritual, non-physical Jesus.

Belief in a phantom is hardly support for a physical Jesus.

I don't think a phantom can be seen as historical, even if believers thought such a phantom was real.


I think a sceptic who argues Jesus did not walk the earth as a physical being is totally in support of Earl's thesis.


How can a divine spirit be an actual person?

Surely someone who believed Jesus was a phantom, a spirit, or an illusion is supporting Earl's view?


Finally,
what about M.Felix ?

He specifically argues that Christians did NOT believe in the incarnation at all, which means he does not believe Jesus existed.


Iasion

andrewcriddle

Epiphanius in the Panarion writing in the late 4th century speaks of Jewish-Christian groups such as the Nazoreans and Ebionites who maintained food laws and the practice of circumcision.

He talks about them in the present tense and regards them as still existing as do some other writers of the period.

I'm not sure whether they were still really existing at that time but things like Epiphanius' apparent access to a more-or less reliable oral tradition about them imply that they were either still existing in the late 4th century or only recently extinct.

Andrew Criddle

RUmike

Who knows.