Johnny Skeptic

Then please explain the following Scriptures:

In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." The verses cite "tangible" evidence of Jesus' power.

More "tangible" evidence comes from Acts 14:3 and Matthew 14:14. In the NIV, Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." In the NIV, Matthew 14:14 says "When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick."

It is important to note that the texts say that "both sides" were aware that Jesus had supernatural powers. Matthew 12:24 says "But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, 'It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.'" Today, both sides "are not" aware of God's supernatural power. Therefore, we don't have nearly the "evidence" today that people with "varying" world views supposedly had back then.

Fundamentalist Christians frequently claim that God has passed many tests many times, i.e. miracles healings. I request that Christians provide documented evidence of miracle healings.

Wayne Delia

Actually, that's one among three verses of a popular Biblical contradiction. Another reference (available on request) claims that the wicked and adulterous generation won't be given any signs at all, period. And yet a third reference claims that Jesus performed all manner of signs and wonders.

So anyway, you claim that "faith is what is required." Wouldn't that be an excellent criteria to determine if a person is a true Christian? Have a person who claims to be a Christian pray, with faith, for something that would not ordinarily be expected to happen. If it doesn't show up, then either the person is not a Christian, or does not have sufficient faith (Jesus said all you need was a mustard seed's worth of faith, however much that is) - or else Jesus lied, or the Christian God doesn't exist.

Would that be a fair test?

I'm aware of quite a few Christians who persist in sinning, but that's a poor excuse for God to use it as an alibi for Him failing to answer pretty much any prayer.

God's just using that as an excuse. What would that have to do with someone today who claims to have enough faith, and asks God for something in prayer? Will God fail to answer it, claiming that the devout Christian is actually worshipping some other gods?

Excellent! So you would have no objection in setting up an objective experiment with the same controls as the test carried out in Judges 6? Very, very few Christians have the balls to even attempt such a test, and those who do are generally immune to embarrassment and much too willing to grasp at anything as an alibi for why the test was not successful.

What would be unrighteous about asking for world peace? If that doesn't qualify, how about a much smaller subset of the world: pray for peace in the Middle East region, which includes the so-called Holy Land.

One would not have to look carefully to see that the prayer for world peace was answered. All wars and hostilities would immediately cease. Even CNN would sit up and take notice.

Why? Is God not capable of focusing on the task at hand? Does God have some sort of attention deficit problem working against Him?

You forgot one major criteria Jesus mentioned in Mark 11:22-24. A believer who asks for something in prayer has to convince himself that he got what he asked for. Only then will everything be delivered. What a con job!

What the hell does that have to do with whether prayers are answered?

WMD

post tenebras lux

But why include the element of chance? Is their god (are their gods, if we're including the other theists) so weak nowadays, that the supposed creator of this universe can only influence coins as they spin, rather than - say - regrow someone's missing arm?

You've missed out a vital phrase (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong): 'review of studies of third party intercessory prayer seem to show that prayer benefits the person praying, but has no measurable effect on the health of the person prayed for (unless that person knows that they are being prayed for).'

It's just the big old placebo effect again.

By the way, another 'reason' I've heard christians using to explain why prayer doesn't work is that the person being prayed for didn't have enough faith. Yep, that excuse has been used on blind kids. 'Jesus loves you', 'we'll pray for your sight to be returned' ... 'What? You're still blind? Then it's all your fault for not having enough faith in Jesus'.

Really, how can they ever lose with that excuse up their sleeve? :huh:

Wads4

I dunno,-have they?-if so, hasn't worked then.

Clarice O'C

Another one. Since we still don't have world peace it must not be god's will. :rolling:

newtype_alpha

I tried that test in high school with some of my pagan friends. No fire from heaven, but we did have one tasty rack of lamb that day.

post tenebras lux

True, the 'end-timers' do claim to have a test to see if god keeps his word: it's called The Book Of Revelation ...

Johnny Skeptic

Well, I am still waiting for Christians to tell me how God can be tested in tangible ways. Come on Christians, what are your answers?

Helpmabob

Hi Pharaoh – The people turned from the worship of idols, and God had compassion: Then they got rid of the foreign gods among them and served the LORD. And he could bear Israel's misery no longer. [Judges 10:16]

Generally, christians fall short in many ways, and do not make use of prayer to anywhere near the extent that is possible.

Hi Wayne Delia – My point about the signs is that an answered prayer under laboratory conditions would still not convince people to believe, if they do not already believe. I have also tried to differentiate between the motivation for prayer, and the likely result. With the greatest of respect, you appear to be misunderstanding prayer. Prayer is not a request list to be used flippantly and with selfish ambition. It is a communion with the living God who wants us to share everything with Him (hence the James 5:13 quote).

If there is something specific anyone would like prayer for, then say now.

A better way of testing - try out one of God’s promises, e.g. – Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. [Revelation 3:20]

Alethias

Been there, done that. What's it supposed to do for me? Save me? I'm unimpressed.

Would I see miracles? If you say yes, prove it.
Would I be happier if I do it? If you say yes, prove it.
Will it solve my life's problems? If you say yes, prove it.

I spent 27 years of my life as a christian, and I never once saw any evidence of a god or gods answering prayer that doesn't have a more reasonable explanation than calling it answered prayer.

I would tend to answer the question of the OP with a question. How do you test something that isn't there?

SoT