Secular Elation

All right, enough with the semantics. Of course oblivion is not a location. The absolute bottom line is: I did not exist before my birth, and I will not exist after my death. Case closed.

If you're not taking me seriously, then why even bother responding to my posts?

sweep

That's where you're wrong. I never suggested this isn't the case. (you always had the right case, but not the appropriate documents)

Oblivion has always evaded you since, you are here. Why do you exist at all? Now that you're past first base, I would like you to tell me what constitutes you. (consider the differences between a room full of newly born babies, in relation to this question. Was there an individual then, and if so, in what way?)

alright. you're not humouring me. I'm not humouring you either. Semantics aside, allow me to rephrase. 'I did not exist, is more accurate than 'I was nothing' Freedom from you, in this perceptual abyss, means that you can exist again. Semantics aside, the you I speak of is not the perceptual you- once you have address the issue of you, then we can begin, if you want.

sweep

I've just realised how stupid I am- the real tragedy here could be that, a lot of people here may be seeing in the dualistic way I described. Even Walt Whitman, 'Our Beloved Infidel', who stated:

'As to you, Life, I reckon you are the leavings of many deaths; No doubt I have died, myself ten thousand times before.'
--
So I have written some additional text to explain myself more clearly:

'that when you contemplate the fact of your demise, there is, and continues to be a 'you' perceiving your own non life, as though that non-life is a continuation of life. It is very hard to realise non-existence so long as you exist. Most attempts to know the fact of your death will fail, because you are there, in the way, imagining a void, or whatever else you are imagining.

To be able to 'completely' rub oneself out, which is the only feasible viewpoint, at least for me, when faced with an abyss, imaginary or otherwise, leaves an opening for all 'potential' life; which is exactly the opposite of going into the abyss. Potential life isn't life (no-one is waiting to live, and all potential life, and lives expired are equal in the abyss), but as sure as life-forms are continually born in incomprehensible numbers, it might not be you now, but if we are all destined to be 'completely' null & void there is no telling whether any of those trillion, billions of life- forms will become you then. And that is why we have no guarantee of oblivion.

Consider that the total number of lifeforms currently existing, and pool them together in your mind as a single light in a black background. now create a tree of single light dots, starting with the first, multiplied by two, and each thereafter splitting into two and branching out at forty five degrees (like red balls on a snooker table) That adds up to an amazing amount of beings. When I think of this, my chances of obliteration seem increasingly vague.

well, this life still begs to be led, so I guess I had no choice. I am thankful to have been dragged from oblivion!

Corona688

Sweep, I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about... either that, you're you're REALLY confusing perception and reality. Before I existed, my conciousness did not exist, so the question of whether it could have realized it's nonexistence at that time is completely moot. After I die, my conciousness will no longer exist. Whether or not my conciousness will 'realize nonexistence' is utterly irrelevant because, no matter what contortions of logic you put this argument through it flies in the face of the fact that people die.

Or if you're talking about how matter is matter and energy is energy and thus it's really all the same thing, that's true on a physical level, but when we concern ourselves with the subjective thinking of these conciousnesses and not just their physical makeup we see that in that respect they are seperate and can be created and destroyed.

A better analogy would be that conciousness is like a painting, and the brain is the canvas it is painted on. Before the canvas exists, the painting can't, and once the canvas is destroyed(the brain decomposes very quickly on death), the painting goes with it. Considered as molecules, there's nothing unique about the painting, but considered as art, there is.

Magic Primate

You are describing consciousness as if it was a substance within a realm of objective, material things. Dualism is frought with philosophical problems.

I'm not arguing that there is no objective world, but the extent has become clear to which all that we know and experience as reality is dependent on the mind/brain. This includes time and space itself. What we think of as real time and space in the world are just representations in the mind. There is no direct relationship for example between how long events actually take and how long they are felt to take. Five minutes in the 'real world' could be an eternity or it could be the tiniest moment or, more likely, it could have no real duration, instead being only the sequence of events.

It may seem that consciousness is a canvas separate from the rest of the universe, but it is not just the painting that is on the canvas, but the studio and the ticking of the clock and the whole universe and all of the past and future - space and time itself.

For the subject, time will not continue ticking away as it is experienced for those who are alive. If time comes to an end there is no event or state of death to be entered into. Only life exists - life and death are only ever viewed from within life. Life is always in the present and death is always in the future.

sweep

It doesn't matter- it isn't useful to contemplate oblivion. And why are you afraid?

perception is reality.

you don't own your consciousness. It was acquired over time. Your form may change dramatically within life, in the confines of your skull, effectively killing self awareness, cognition and memory- you will be dead, your body will still function. The eyes blink, the jaw undulates, but mr brain has long since departed.

this fact was never in question

yes mp, the universe is dynamic. Perception relies upon changes and contrast. Cells die on our hands but we don't perceive this, since the process is very slow. Our nervous systems rely upon changes in stimulation, for feelings to occur. Try my simple experiment, and know this for yourself:
'run a bath, and fill with hot water. When you stand in this bath make sure that it burns but not so much that you in agony or causing yourself damage. After several seconds the sensations will die a little, and you'll start to get comfortable. Now, with your feet still in the bath, run the cold tap and you will notice that it starts to burn where the water meets the air. Thereby, the fluctuations in temperature, define your experience. sameness is death, even in life'

Corona688

I was afraid you'd post another big giant post that nobody would get. Er.... no. Reality does as it damn well pleases no matter what I percieve it to be. It was here before I was, and will be here after I am gone. Or did you mean some non-real kind of reality? Of course I don't own my conciousness.. I *am* my conciousness. Er... I'm guessing you mean 'change form' in a metaphorical sense? Are you referring to brain death, or what? If you are, then that was precisely my point... Sorry. It's difficult to be sure what you're talking about. I understood all that, up to the last sentence. 'sameness is death, even in life'? What does that mean? Spell it out for me please.