the_cave

It's the "supposedly" here where the magic happens. I have found no evidence whatsoever that Atomos was any sort of name, nickname or otherwise, which meant "shorty" (which is the meaning of Paulus). If anyone can provide any evidence at all that this was the case, they are welcome to.

In my opinion it's a kind of linguistic anachronism, but again, anyone can feel free to prove me wrong.

Ok: maybe he wasn't so big. Or maybe he was Theudas or the Egyptian or something. Lots of possibilities.

the_cave

fwiw it's either Eisler or Price who says that they can be made equivalent if the author of Acts (and/or Justin Martyr) confused "Kittim" with "Gitta". IIRC, that is.

IMO it's Simon Magus who's the legendary figure. Possibly based off of Josephus' Simon, and who knows, maybe also after Saul/Paul(/Silas?) and Simon Peter/Cephas.

Kelly

It wasn't too long ago that the History Channel did a thing on "The Other Messiahs" and Simon Magnus certainly does appear to have existed; at least according to the History Channel.

Blavatsky did quite a piece on him too, although what can one say about Blavatsky? http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/a...SimonMagus.htm

While Magnus certainly was anathema to many early Christians, he remains a legendary figure among the occult and illuminati groups. If you just Google his name, you'll find 32,000 web pages talking about him as either the consort of the devil, or a Gnostic saint.
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/his/Simon-Magnus.html

There is even a complete online book available about Simon Magnus written by George Robert Stow Mead in 2004
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/wor...79424&pageno=1

andrewcriddle

Simon comes from Gitta in Justin Martyr not in Acts.
Assuming that Acts is earlier than Justin, the Simon Magus in Acts really must be a Samaritan.

It is possible that the heresiarch Simon in Justin Martyr is really someone quite different from Simon the Magician in Acts. If so it would be possible that the Simon in Justin should be identified with Simon the Magician in Josephus; but not IMO likely.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

Just to clarify.

The Mead book was written in 1892. (or thereabouts)
It was put on gutenberg in 2004.

Andrew Criddle

the_cave

But...if Acts (or at least that passage in Acts) is not earlier than Justin, then...

Of course it is also quite possible that "Simon Magus" (if any figure was actually called that at the time) was some sort of Samaritan preacher.

Sure--I was just mentioning what Eisler and Price thought. I think probably Justin's figure may be somewhat legendary in both name and origin, but who knows.

Huon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_Blavatsky
Theosophy is the keyword.

Kelly

Thanks Andrew. Am just reading that link now and see that it was indeed written in the last century.

And yes, Huon. "Theosophy" does indeed sum up Blavatsky; a most interesting charactar to say the least... I have several of her books and even belonged to the movement at one time.

the_cave

Though I did want to point out that due to the Elymas/Etoimas connection, I can see an Etoimas/Atomos connection, and hence it's possible that "Elymas bar-Jesus" is the same as Josephus' Simon. But this identifies him with neither Simon Magus nor Paul.

aa5874

It could not be that Simon Magus is legendary, based on your assesment, it would be Simon Magus who has an historical core as Josephus' Simon.

"Saul/Paul" is the figure without an historical core. "Saul/Paul" is not mentioned outside of apologetic sources.