Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 07-02-2011, 05:11 PM

James Tabor has mentioned on McGrath's blog that he is the coauthor of an upcoming book on the Talpiot Tomb called the Jesus Discovery.

He indicates that he thinks Oded Golan has provided irrefutable evidence that the James Ossuary is not the forgery that people think it is, that it can be connected to the Talpiot Tomb, as James Tabor has speculated in the Jesus Dynasty, and ... stay tuned, he writes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Tabor

I think the summary that Oded Golan presents of the trial evidence is extremely balanced and fair, and basically unanswerable. I am quite sure that is why it has been greeted with deafening silence. Even so, plenty of those who have taken its forgery as a given keep repeating the mantra, showing their ignorance of what is now emerging.

On the Talpiot tombs (plural, there are TWO of them, less than 200 feet apart) more generally there is much new evidence that will be revealed at the Fall meetings of ASOR/AAR/SBL/BibleFest plus several major articles, a monograph edited by Charlesworth and I book I am co-authoring, The Jesus Discovery. Stay tuned...

The only problem: this version of the historical Jesus is more or less incompatible with Christianity, and is totally at odds with most other reconstructions of the historical Jesus. Not to mention that connecting the Talpiot tomb to the Historical Jesus involves Baysian statistics.

I will stay tuned.
:eating_popcorn:

Toto · 07-02-2011, 06:14 PM

The Jesus Discovery: The New Archaeological Find That Reveals the Birth of Christianity (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Quote:

Tabor and Jacobovici have examined a sealed first-century tomb in Jerusalem, where they have found the earliest evidence for a belief in the resurrection of Jesus, based on what appears to be the oldest Christian iconography ever discovered. This major new find will be the subject of a primetime National Geographic Society television documentary. The discovery affirms a belief in the resurrection of Jesus that pre-dates the Gospels. It is possible, perhaps even likely, that whoever was buried in this tomb heard Jesus preach.

The stunning discovery also reopens the historical discussion of a nearby tomb previously identified by the authors as the family tomb of Jesus. That tomb contained ossuaries that may be those of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and members of the family of Jesus. Was Jesus married, and did he father a child who was buried in this tomb?

This title will be released on November 1, 2011.

Jim West files this under pseudoarcheaology

Quote:

A colleague tells me that two of the book’s chapters are devoted to Mary Magdalene and suggests that she was a boozer because they found high levels of lead in her dna (yes, remember, they found her bones buried next to Jesus…’). Lead was used in ancient times to stop the fermentation process. So, speculation piled on top of speculation. ... All this pimping of archaeology just casts the whole field in a bad light.

stephan huller · 07-02-2011, 06:15 PM

This is so idiotic. On the one hand there is indisputable fact that the idea of a burial place of Jesus contradicts everything in the official history of Christianity but at the same time Irenaeus makes absolutely certain that Jesus's name was Yeshu not Yeshua. So Irenaeus is wrong, the tradition founded on the Church Fathers isn't really inspired, the gospel gets it wrong - but the truth of Christianity is still immaculate.

Only an American could be so stupid to uphold something utterly heretical in the name of 'conservative' evangelical values.

How could the Church Fathers not have known about this? It's so completely moronic but moronic sells.

Toto · 07-02-2011, 06:30 PM

At first I had James Tabor's post confused with McGrath. But I'm not sure why McGrath thinks that this might cause mythicists to change their beliefs without being more of a challenge to standard Christians. McGrath goes on to say

Quote:

... when it comes to supporting mythicism, mythicists are prone to wild speculation and give free rein to their imagination. But things that easy to imagine, such as a wealthy follower of Jesus giving a tomb for the burial of someone he believed to be God's anointed, somehow never occurs to them.

I'll see your imaginative speculation and raise it.

aeebee50 · 07-02-2011, 09:48 PM

Seems like people still discovering Jesus.

Steven Carr · 07-03-2011, 01:09 AM

What was James McGrath saying about creationists and pseudo-science?

stephan huller · 07-03-2011, 11:02 AM

Again, these American evangelicals represent the end of Christianity in a way that is unparalleled even by someone like Richard Dawkins. This idea of a completely reinventing Christianity as something 'true' but unknown to anyone in the last two thousand years of its history is the death knell of the tradition. Their hope has always been to find 'the historical Jesus' divorced of 'all the trappings' developed by pagan Europe. I see mythicists and people like James McGrath as cut from the same cloth - twins that came from the same womb i.e. modernism.

If atheists really want to destroy Christianity they should get behind McGrath's efforts. Nietzche once wrote that the best way to discredit a point of view is to make bad arguments for it. With McGrath there is no need to use any imagination. He is doing a great job dislodging the foundations on which the Church was built all on his own.

I can't believe he doesn't realize what he is doing and the effect it will ultimately have if it was adopted on a wide scale.

Toto · 07-03-2011, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

.... Nietzche once wrote that the best way to discredit a point of view is to make bad arguments for it. ....

This idea needs to be taken to heart.

Toto · 07-04-2011, 09:23 PM

Comments by Joe Zias on the Discovery Channel show on the Talpiot Tomb

mountainman · 07-05-2011, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The only problem: this version of the historical Jesus is more or less incompatible with Christianity, and is totally at odds with most other reconstructions of the historical Jesus.

Its a zoo.

Quote:

Not to mention that connecting the Talpiot tomb to the Historical Jesus involves Baysian statistics.

Apologetic GIGO.

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07-02-2011, 06:15 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	This is so idiotic. On the one hand there is indisputable fact that the idea of a burial place of Jesus contradicts everything in the official history of Christianity but at the same time Irenaeus makes absolutely certain that Jesus's name was Yeshu not Yeshua. So Irenaeus is wrong, the tradition founded on the Church Fathers isn't really inspired, the gospel gets it wrong - but the truth of Christianity is still immaculate. Only an American could be so stupid to uphold something utterly heretical in the name of 'conservative' evangelical values. How could the Church Fathers not have known about this? It's so completely moronic but moronic sells.

07-02-2011, 09:48 PM	#5
aeebee50 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 5,810	Seems like people still discovering Jesus.

07-03-2011, 01:09 AM	#6
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	What was James McGrath saying about creationists and pseudo-science?

07-03-2011, 11:02 AM	#7
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Again, these American evangelicals represent the end of Christianity in a way that is unparalleled even by someone like Richard Dawkins. This idea of a completely reinventing Christianity as something 'true' but unknown to anyone in the last two thousand years of its history is the death knell of the tradition. Their hope has always been to find 'the historical Jesus' divorced of 'all the trappings' developed by pagan Europe. I see mythicists and people like James McGrath as cut from the same cloth - twins that came from the same womb i.e. modernism. If atheists really want to destroy Christianity they should get behind McGrath's efforts. Nietzche once wrote that the best way to discredit a point of view is to make bad arguments for it. With McGrath there is no need to use any imagination. He is doing a great job dislodging the foundations on which the Church was built all on his own. I can't believe he doesn't realize what he is doing and the effect it will ultimately have if it was adopted on a wide scale.

07-04-2011, 09:23 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Comments by Joe Zias on the Discovery Channel show on the Talpiot Tomb

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