GakuseiDon

There did seem to be a lot of signs reported leading up to the destruction of the Temple. Tacitus wrote:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/ta...History05.html

Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice. There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire.

Probably Tacitus got this from Josephus, who also wrote of the same events, as well as as a star that stood over Jerusalem for a year, indicating that the Messiah had come (though Josephus never used the term 'Messiah', and stated the the prophecy of a leader coming from the East referred to Vespasian).

aa5874

How is it Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius did NOT mention that Jesus CORRECTLY predicted the Fall of the Temple??? There should have been FOUR Gospels and the Disciples and Apostles should have been all over the Roman Empire BEFORE C 70 CE.

Mark 13

la70119

We are NOT talking about crucifixions in general, but one crucifiction in particular. The one crucifiction that we are talking about, if it had any basis in reality, HAD to have taken place in 30 CE at the latest because all four gospel writers have the Sanhedrin trying capital cases.

Now if you want to argue that the Jewish authorities never had a hand in Jesus' trial and death, whether there was an HJ to try and crucify or not, be my guest.

Again, the latest date for a crucifixion where the Jewish Great Sanhedrin would have tried the person and sent him to the prefect for sentencing is 30 CE. Got it?

aa5874

Don't you even understand that I do not agree with you??? This is PRECISELY why we have these threads.

There was NO trial by the Sanhedrin as stated in the Canon. It is just a story.

The story could have been written ANYTIME AFTER 30 CE.

NOW Please, even in the story of the trial, the Sanhedrin ASSEMBLED and tried Jesus FIRST and then put him before Pilate AFTER he made the supposed Blasphemous statement in their Presence.

In "Antiquities of the Jews" 20.9.1, c 64 CE, the SANHEDRIN simply required Permission to assemble.

In Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.6, the Sanhedrin was still ASSEMBLING with PERMISSION of the King c 64 CE.

la70119

But of course you are disagreeing with me. Why do you have to be so disagreeable about it?

Well of course it was just a story. And the 40-years figure given by the various Jewish sources are probably just round figures. But the gospel writers didn't know that. And they needed an angle with which to blame the Jews with, even though crucifixion was a ROMAN penalty.

And the writers needed a time setting wherein the Jewish Great Sanhedrin could have *plausibly* had a hand in the death of the hero of the story. You know full well that there are versions of the story that portray the Jews as actually physically carrying out the sentence of crucifixion on him (gLuke, gPeter).

As if I did not know of the story line myself. I am fully familiar with the illegal kangaroo court show trial proceedings going on in gMark, gMatthew, gLuke and gJohn. Never mind they have no basis in ancient historical fact that we know of.

That one was illegal. (Antiquities 20.9.2.202)

And there is nothing in Antiquities 20.9.6 that stated that they tried capital cases. Even so, Josephus says in line 218 that "all this was contrary to the laws of our country." But perfectly fine with Roman jurisprudence, apparently.

aa5874

The Sanhedrin did NOT try a Capital case in the Gospels. The Capital Case was TRIED before Pilate.

Jesus was NOT even punished for anything in the Trial with the Sanhedrin.

The Sanhedrin BROUGHT Jesus to Pilate for the Capital Case and he was EXONERATED by Pilate.

Pilate claimed he FOUND NO FAULT with Jesus in the Capital Case in the Bible.

If the Sanhedrin TRIED the Capital case of Jesus then he would have been Sentenced by them WITHOUT the need of Pilate's trial.

spin

You don't seem to have any grounds for your claims. Jn 18:31 clearly and merely states that they were not permitted (εξεστιν) to put a man to death. We already know that from what Josephus indicates of Coponius. If there was a Jesus to be crucified, Jn 18:31 doesn't exclude an informal decision to urge the Romans to put someone to death. We know that if there had been such a meeting it could not have been official because it took place at night, which is not permitted for capital offences (M.Sanhedrin 4.1: "In capital cases, they try the case by day and they complete it by day"). So if they'd started on Friday they'd have to finish the following (non-sabbath) day, ie Sunday.

All you are doing is making conjectures, assuming veracity of the tradition and accuracy and relevance of your other citations with sufficient bullshit factor to hold it all together.

At the same time we know that John the Baptist was supposedly executed perhaps a year before Jesus was and given John's execution for fear of sedition is tied causally to the war of 36 CE between Antipas and Aretas by Josephus (AJ 18.109-118). If John's death had been too long before the outcome of the war his relevance to it would not have been justifiable. So we have a death of Jesus according to this chronology somewhere around the time of the war.

arnoldo

Caiphas was the high priest of Israel until the year 36 CE and allegedly was the son in law of the former high priest Annas as per John 18:13. Pontius Pilate also was in power up until the year 36 CE. Herod Antipas was in power until the year 39 CE and as per Luke 23:7 was given a chance by Pilate to question Jesus. If Antipas had John the Baptist killed then chronologically it would've happened before 36 CE.

Grog

125 CE at the earliest...as late as 160 or so.

la70119

Papyrus P52 is usually dated 117-138 CE, or before 100 CE to 150 CE, with a median date of 125 CE.

The curious thing about it, it has neither the Nomina Sacra, nor Jesus' name in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands...ry_Papyrus_P52