ericmurphy

ck1

And I have had the opportunity to see some of those actual fossils. If you are really interested, you can too.

The photos you requested are interesting and informative, but if you want to debunk these things you really have to analyze the real things. And remember the interested amateur has to spend a lot of time studying the relevant science to be able to critically analyze those fossils.

Your attempt to paint all paleontologists studying such fossils as frauds needs to be supported or withdrawn.

VoxRat

To say nothing of talking snakes, 900-year old geezers, drag-racing continents...

from Missouri, indeed.

ck1

Response to off-topic comment: Sorry, I could not let this go by without commenting so I will be brief. These two recent papers have addressed the evolution of the flagellum by analyzing the 42 flagellar proteins and their homologs:
And Dave, I am guessing that your request for scientists to "demonstrate" this evolution is a request to have us reproduce the entire process in a test tube. I am sure everyone else reading this recognizes the absurdity of this request.

edit to add links:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journa...micro1493.html

Pappy Jack

From the link I posted at #198 above, here are some median lifespans in years based on the archaeological study of health, disease and death in the E Med (M followed by F):

30k-9k BC = 35.4/30.0
9k-7k BC = 33.5/31.3
7k-5k BC = 33.6/29.8
5k-3k BC = 33.1/29.2
3k-2k BC = 33.6/29.4
2k-c.1.5k BC = 36.5/31.4
c.1.5k-c.1k BC = 39.6/32.6

Even allowing for AFD's notorious dislike of any archaeological dates that cast down on the YEC chronology, there is precisely no evidence that suggests lifespans of the length 'recorded' in the Bible.

Calilasseia

Several people have. You just summarily dismissed the evidence because it didn't fit your preconceptions. As per usual.

Oh, so the laboratory work in the Liu and Ochman paper was a "just so" story was it? I bet they'll be really gratified to hear you say that.

One, it's a bit rich for you to talk about "evolutionists invoking magic", when YOU are the one who brought up the talking snakes in another thread. Two, your ability to "examine evidence in detail" has already been put to the test repeatedly and found wanting.

Pot, Kettle, Black again.

The primary objection to your millennarian supermen is that no one has been observed living signifcantly beyond 120 years by medical science. The oldest reliably documented human being was less than 130 years old at death - Jeanne Calment from France, who lived to the age of 122 years and 164 days. "1000-year old patriarchs" is talking snake territory again (and we all remember how you invoked the supernatural over that one - remember this post in the formal debate, Dave, where you said:

YOU are the one that invokes supernatural phenomena Dave, which you NEED to support all those wacky ideas that are in violation of the laws of physics, such as RATE's "accelerated nuclear decay" garbage that would have Earth turning into the mother of all particle accelerators as it heats up to 10¹⁸⁰⁶ Kelvins and begins emitting exotic supersymmetric particles - you NEED the supernatural for this, Dave, because without it, the laws of physics blow your entire world view away. Unfortunately for you Dave, we're not in the business of being unthinking nodding dog dolls on the back shelves of cars, we demand evidence for claims like this, evidence that you have failed to provide. "Genesis says so" doesn't count, because ANYONE can make up stories like that.

This again, is not even worth a point of view. Especially coming from someone who routinely dismisses large quantities of evidence provided by others simply because it doesn't fit the preconception of Biblical inerrancy, then expects others to regard AiG cut and pastes as being deep and meaningful.

Excuse me while I decide whether to laugh or to barf. A high view of Genesis counts as "thoughtful" in your book? Uncritical devotion to myth? Puh-lease ...

As for this post, well given that this post was followed by multiple refutations, which again you obviously ignored (try this one of mine for example) your response is not in the least bit surprising, given the precedents already set. An audit trail of your standard of discourse in action.

But then, regular viewers of your output have come to expect no better Dave.

The Evil One

Because I'm bored I'm going to do afdave's homework for him and actually dig through these sources from AJ one by one.


Manetho - wrote a history of Egypt. Cannot, therefore, be support for your view of pre-flood millennarians, because you have been absolutely clear that Egypt was founded after the flood. (Manetho's history, unlike the SKL, does not include a deluge.) Most notably, Manetho's long-lived rulers are actually the Egyptian gods.

Berosus - already covered.

Mochus -a Phoenician. Unable to find any more info online.

Hestiaeus - no info on any such person the web except in references to this passage in AJ.

Hieronymus the Egyptian - not known except through this passage in AJ (incidentally, this thread is the #10 result on Google for this person).

The writers of the "Phoenician History" - difficult to search for since no author is named. But if the Wiki article on Phoenicia is to be believed, we don't have any surviving works of history by Phoenician authors.

Hesiod - Greek poet (NOT historian; predates Herodotus). AJ is probably referring to his description of the Golden Age of Greek myth, ruled by the Titan Kronos, when humans lived to great ages but never got old, death was like falling to sleep, and people were free from toil and grief; no farming was needed because the earth produced food in abundance. It hardly needs pointing out that this is not a historical "source" in any meaningful sense, and that even if it was it contradicts Genesis on practically everything.

Hecataeus - I assume that Hecataeus of Abdera is emant here. He wrote a book on the history of the Egyptians, which is lost.

Hellanicus - presumably Hellanicus of Lesbos. Wrote histories of Persia, Troy, and Attica. Fragments survive.

Acusilaus - circa 500BC, all his works are lost.

Ephorus - Greek historian, only fragments of his histories survive.

Nicolaus - presumably Nicolaus of Damascus. Only fragments survive of his history of the world.



The bottom line is: none of these "sources" survive, so far as I can tell, with the exception of Hesiod which is mythological poetry, not history, plus bits of Maetho that don't help your case. So it is difficult if not impossible to know what they said. The one "historical source" of J's that we do have - namely the Babylonian version of the SKL - gives ages of 30-40K years, and Josephus considers that to agree with him. So we have no guarantee that any of the others even mention a ~1000 year lifespan. They could have mentioned *any* extraordinary long length of time, and Josephus would have considered them as confirmatory.

Now that may be good enough for Josephus, but alas, afdave, it's not good enough for you, because you have nailed your colours to a rather more specific claim.


Point is, afdave, anyone seriously interested in finding out about ancient history (as opposed to shoring up creationism by any means possible) would have done the above work before ever starting this thread.

Occam's Aftershave

Dave, the very book you reference says
But you have repeatedly told us that the Great Flood happened in 2743 BC, and that everything in the world that existed before then was completely destroyed by the raging catastrophe, remember? Now you are quoting archaeologists who give dates of excavated civilizations of well before your Flood date. Were all these excavations and artifacts carried on the Ark, then reburied by Noah???

Do you ever bother to think for one second before you post this self-contradictory rubbish? Do you Dave?

So just because snakes can't talk NOW doesn't mean they NEVER could have EVER. And just because there is no possible physical way for continents to race around at 100 MPH NOW doesn't mean they NEVER could have EVER.

:funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:

You missed your calling Dave. You could have been world famous as a comedy writer.

someotherguy

edit: nevermind

Elijah

Perhaps, but I highly doubt that either of us are qualified to speculate on the chances of that happening. Regardless, for the moment at least, your Lamarckian claims remain unsupported.[/QUOTE]

Sorry added a link above.