DCHindley

Was it? Could you cite the Cave & fragment #?

The DSS Bible says only vs 17-18 if chapter 18 survived in 1QSam: 18:17-18. This is the part where Saul offers David his eldest daughter in marriage and plots to send him to an early death in the battles with the Philistines.

I don't have the complete list of fragments ready at hand.

DCH

Duke Leto

Curiosity DCH, why place the quote you're responding to after your response?

There's nothing wrong with it per se, there's probably nothing in Strunk/White on the subject, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do it.

Just wondering.

outhouse

ya but it is another roman claiming to be a pharisee, and that is the heart of Stephans issue, using paul as a example is in context as such

stephan huller

Have you ever read Polycarp? Ingenious and retarded immediately come to mind. But there are stages to any theory. It's like going out to a nightclub. You start off by thinking you're going to meet some amazing woman and then by about 2 pm your dancing with the fat chick (or at least so my friends, I am such a bad dancer even alcohol couldn't coerce me to action).

The idea that the Josephan corpus was developed by others is implicit in the statement in Against Apion. A believer will somehow construe this as 'license' on the part of Josephus - i.e. that he couldn't speak Greek well enough to 'accomplish' whatever he was trying to accomplish (in the case of Jewish Antiquities a parallel to Dionysius's Roman Antiquities). For more cynical minded observers there is a parallel between Josephus's use of assistants and Paul's 'fellow-workers.'

After all, Paul now says 'my gospel' but doesn't mean 'literary text.' That only came out with - you guessed it - his 'assistant' Luke. Peter also doesn't write a gospel - despite reports to the contrary. The gospel of Peter was established by his helper John and on an on it goes. The gospel of John apparently suffered from Marcion's 'assistance' and he had to reprove the heretics and 'correct' his text.

stephan huller

Romans 16:3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers (συνεργούς) workers in Christ Jesus,

Romans 16:9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker (συνεργόν) in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.

Romans 16:21 Timothy my fellow (συνεργός) worker (synergos | συνεργός | nom sg masc) greets you, as do Lucius and Jason and Sosipater, my compatriots.

1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are coworkers (συνεργοί) belonging to God. You are God’s field, God’s building.

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not that we are ruling over your faith, but we are workers (συνεργοί) with you for your joy; for by faith you have stood firm.

2 Corinthians 8:23 As for Titus, he is my companion and fellow worker (συνεργός) among you. As for our brothers, they are delegates of the churches, an honor to Christ.

Philippians 2:25 In the meantime I think it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker (συνεργόν), and fellow soldier, as well as your messenger and minister to my need,

Philippians 4:3 Yes, I ask you also, my true comrade, help these women who have labored side by side with me in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow (συνεργῶν) workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Colossians 4:11 and Jesus who is called Justus. These are the are only Jewish These only Christians among my fellow (συνεργοί) workers for the kingdom of God, and they have been a comfort to me.

1 Thessalonians 3:2 and we sent Timothy, our brother and coworker (συνεργόν) for God in the gospel of Christ, to establish and encourage you in your faith,

Philemon 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our dear friend and fellow worker (συνεργῷ),

Philemon 1:24 as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, and Luke, my fellow workers (συνεργοί)

3 John 1:8 Therefore we ought to show hospitality to such men, so that we may be coworkers (συνεργοί) for the truth.

stephan huller

The idea that the Pauline corpus and the Josephan corpus so heavily relied on synergoi is peculiar and should be a red flag. In the case of the Pauline corpus (which includes the gospel) we have a longer Catholic rescension which confesses heavy reliance on synergoi (many of these references in fact appear in sections of the Pauline letters which constitute 'additions' to the shorter more original Marcionite edition eg Rom 16). In the case of Josephus many experts posit the existence of a shorter original Aramaic hypomnema which was expanded to make both Vita and BJ. Think about that.

stephan huller

3 John was deliberately included because it is another forgery.

stephan huller

4Q51 (4QSama) = 1 Sam 18:4 - 5

look up - Frg. 17 1 Sam 18:4-5 (Pl. XIIa) http://pluto.huji.ac.il/~tov/Sama.combined.SH.pdf

My original statement "1 Samuel 18:1 - 5 was also found in the fragments at Qumran." This section is a discernible unit. It was removed by the LXX as a unit and appears as a section in all other texts (including LXX A). I haven't seen Codex Alexandrinus myself but I have come across this somewhere.

Duke Leto

You're equating the Josephan canon with the Pauline corpus that is widely known to be partly spurious or the gospels where there was never an author cited in the original text? Impressive.

As noted elsewhere I can't give two shits about what Church Fathers had to say about anything. They're all a bunch of asslicking slimeballs.

Perhaps I did not speak clearly enough. Your model of a Christian Josephus requires the early Christians to not only be clever while being extremely stupid, it requires them to act in a way that would discourage others from believing in their religion. That's the stunning absurdity.

stephan huller

Thank you.