Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cheetah · 06-12-2002, 07:27 AM

Did anyone see this last night? Quite amusing. I came in in the middle, but Heather Mercer's mom was basically saying her daughter was wrong to go to Afghanistan and that she lied to everyone when she said they were not going to proselytize. In fact, they were going specifically to proselytize, "save souls", and "church plant." H Mercer denied the words church plant on the show, but the business card that she had made before she went specifically said that they were church planting. Also, they had come up with an elaborate scheme to talk about Jesus ("the carpenter"), Christians ("Believers") and the Bible ("Book").

Her mother is pissed because what she did was illegal and no matter how great god is, you shouldn't go somewhere and do something illegal. I totally agree with this and wouldn't have shed a tear if the girls had been executed. I mean, I don't agree with the laws, and am glad it's changing, because people shouldn't be treated like that, but those girls knew the laws and purposefully went into the country to disobey them. And not to show the laws were wrong, but just to ignore the laws so they could do something they selfishly wanted to do.

ALso, they had the pastor of the church on and they asked him if he was purposely training "spies for Jesus." That was pretty funny, but of course this guy denies it. After all, they are all just SHARING the love.

I hate people like this. I guess I can't stand Christians and Christianity the most because there seems to be no other religion where people are quite so overbearing about wanting to force you into it and "save souls." It's just insulting, rude and ceaselessly annoying. So, I wouldn't mind if these people learn their lesson by seeing other proselytizers be executed. I realize that sounds heartless, but it's not like they are innocent of what they are doing, and it might help reduce the spread of this "virus!"

brighid · 06-12-2002, 07:35 AM

There is a good article in the May/June Mother Jones magazine about the tactics of Evangelical Christian missionaries. They are taught specifically to lie and deceive and run if their new converts are caught, tried and killed. They know they will likely get out and are told to learn to deal with these people who trusted them being murdered. These people are so sick. I was totally pissed that those girls got a warm reception back home. What they were doing was wrong, even if it wasn�t illegal. But it is especially immoral because they KNEW it was illegal. What happened to the family they were staying with? Were they killed or imprisoned, perhaps beaten or tortured? I don�t agree with the Taliban or Islamic law on this subject, but when you knowingly, willingly and carelessly put peoples lives in danger to talk to them about God you should be made an example of. They knew the laws and broke them and millions of Americans cheered. Sometimes I am embarrassed to call myself an American.

Brighid

Unfortunately, there is no hyperlink available for this article.

DarkBronzePlant · 06-12-2002, 08:19 AM

I saw it last night as well. Normally I'm not the type of person who talks to his TV, but I couldn't stop myself from repeatedly shouting "SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!" whenever Heather Mercer would open her yap.

Darwin's Finch · 06-12-2002, 08:20 AM

Like cheetah, I stumbled across this segment partway through. At one point, they were interviewing the pastor of their church, and the so-called 10-40 strategy was dicussed, "10-40" referring to the latitudinal corrider the Baptist missions are targeting for relief efforts and "church planting". As was pointed out on the program, this corrider envelops the entire southern-Asian and north-African Islamic world.

As far as I'm concerned, if these people are stupid and pushy enough to go into these countries and illegally proselytize, they get what they deserve; they know damn well what the risks are. However, I agree that it is unconscienable that they would knowingly place so many others in danger. This is a perfect example of what happens when people allow their religious convictions to get in the way of their ethical judgement: innocent people get hurt.

IvanK · 06-12-2002, 08:32 AM

I'm afraid that to them the people they convert who are later beaten and killed are merely so many more martyrs for the cause. It's not unlike the religious leaders who encourage their young people to blow themselves up so that they can achieve Paradise, is it?

babelfish · 06-12-2002, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by IvanK:
<strong>I'm afraid that to them the people they convert who are later beaten and killed are merely so many more martyrs for the cause. It's not unlike the religious leaders who encourage their young people to blow themselves up so that they can achieve Paradise, is it?</strong>

Ouch!

Cozmoe · 06-12-2002, 09:11 AM

Why do I have the strange feeling that in another world these two girls would have strapped themselves with dynamite and blown up as many Jews as possible?

Or worse yet, paid for the dynamite and sent some other poor shmuck to blow himself up.

cheetah · 06-12-2002, 09:15 AM

Wow. I hadn't even thought of the consequences for the people they associated with there in the country, but that is so true. Thanks, brighid and others for bringing that point up, too.

I agree, Ivan, there are so many similarities between these people and radical Muslims. I see why they hate us so much at times like these, because to them (much like they are to us), they see the radical fundamentalists more than the more mellow ones. I wouldn't want to live in one of those Muslim countries, and I am not so fond of being here in America where we do have freedom, but the social atmosphere is repulsive.

I REALLY hated that the military saved them at our expense. The military shouldn't be saving people who break the law willingly. I also hate when people go do stupid things like climbing a mountain they are not prepared for and have to be rescued. This is even worse, because they are doing something illegal and then get rescued and celebrated for it. So dumb!

Bree · 06-12-2002, 09:56 AM

The women are now on a book tour which will raise tons of money for "the glorious cause" - that phrase (which I saw quoted in an online magazine, can't remember which one) cracked me up. It reminds me of Gone With The Wind where Scarlett talks about working for "the glorious cause" - beating back the North, of course. Reminds me how sugar-coated the whole thing is.

WJ · 06-12-2002, 10:36 AM

Though I didn't see it, I heard about it today. I'm usually not that outspoken about these things but since it is on my mind, I'll purge.

1. I think it was wrong to go over there with a hidden aggenda particularly in view of the laws. As my understanding, there was an interview with a guy who discussed the negative effects of such aggenda viz. a county like afghan..

2. The specific and central question, IMO, has to be the interpretation of 'spreading the good news'. I believe, the right way to approach the so-called justification of it is to review the NT to see how 'Laws' and the selling of Christianity was handled.

This is the problem with religion and pride. I believe it was Jesus who had great disdain for the human ways of certain religious practice and worship, as I don't think it is all about putting notches in one's belt. Apparently, the girl's felt like that was 'the sole mission' viz. laws that explicitly forbid such a thing.

I would be interested to hear from any theist who feels like covert activity of this specific type, under those circumstances, is appropriate.

Walrus

06-12-2002, 07:27 AM	#1
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	NBC last night: Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer Did anyone see this last night? Quite amusing. I came in in the middle, but Heather Mercer's mom was basically saying her daughter was wrong to go to Afghanistan and that she lied to everyone when she said they were not going to proselytize. In fact, they were going specifically to proselytize, "save souls", and "church plant." H Mercer denied the words church plant on the show, but the business card that she had made before she went specifically said that they were church planting. Also, they had come up with an elaborate scheme to talk about Jesus ("the carpenter"), Christians ("Believers") and the Bible ("Book"). Her mother is pissed because what she did was illegal and no matter how great god is, you shouldn't go somewhere and do something illegal. I totally agree with this and wouldn't have shed a tear if the girls had been executed. I mean, I don't agree with the laws, and am glad it's changing, because people shouldn't be treated like that, but those girls knew the laws and purposefully went into the country to disobey them. And not to show the laws were wrong, but just to ignore the laws so they could do something they selfishly wanted to do. ALso, they had the pastor of the church on and they asked him if he was purposely training "spies for Jesus." That was pretty funny, but of course this guy denies it. After all, they are all just SHARING the love. I hate people like this. I guess I can't stand Christians and Christianity the most because there seems to be no other religion where people are quite so overbearing about wanting to force you into it and "save souls." It's just insulting, rude and ceaselessly annoying. So, I wouldn't mind if these people learn their lesson by seeing other proselytizers be executed. I realize that sounds heartless, but it's not like they are innocent of what they are doing, and it might help reduce the spread of this "virus!"

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06-12-2002, 07:35 AM	#2
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	There is a good article in the May/June Mother Jones magazine about the tactics of Evangelical Christian missionaries. They are taught specifically to lie and deceive and run if their new converts are caught, tried and killed. They know they will likely get out and are told to learn to deal with these people who trusted them being murdered. These people are so sick. I was totally pissed that those girls got a warm reception back home. What they were doing was wrong, even if it wasn�t illegal. But it is especially immoral because they KNEW it was illegal. What happened to the family they were staying with? Were they killed or imprisoned, perhaps beaten or tortured? I don�t agree with the Taliban or Islamic law on this subject, but when you knowingly, willingly and carelessly put peoples lives in danger to talk to them about God you should be made an example of. They knew the laws and broke them and millions of Americans cheered. Sometimes I am embarrassed to call myself an American. Brighid Unfortunately, there is no hyperlink available for this article.

06-12-2002, 08:19 AM	#3
DarkBronzePlant Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Posts: 3,568	I saw it last night as well. Normally I'm not the type of person who talks to his TV, but I couldn't stop myself from repeatedly shouting "SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!" whenever Heather Mercer would open her yap.

06-12-2002, 08:20 AM	#4
Darwin's Finch Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 666	Like cheetah, I stumbled across this segment partway through. At one point, they were interviewing the pastor of their church, and the so-called 10-40 strategy was dicussed, "10-40" referring to the latitudinal corrider the Baptist missions are targeting for relief efforts and "church planting". As was pointed out on the program, this corrider envelops the entire southern-Asian and north-African Islamic world. As far as I'm concerned, if these people are stupid and pushy enough to go into these countries and illegally proselytize, they get what they deserve; they know damn well what the risks are. However, I agree that it is unconscienable that they would knowingly place so many others in danger. This is a perfect example of what happens when people allow their religious convictions to get in the way of their ethical judgement: innocent people get hurt.

06-12-2002, 08:32 AM	#5
IvanK Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 2,016	I'm afraid that to them the people they convert who are later beaten and killed are merely so many more martyrs for the cause. It's not unlike the religious leaders who encourage their young people to blow themselves up so that they can achieve Paradise, is it?

06-12-2002, 09:11 AM	#7
Cozmoe Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 43	Why do I have the strange feeling that in another world these two girls would have strapped themselves with dynamite and blown up as many Jews as possible? Or worse yet, paid for the dynamite and sent some other poor shmuck to blow himself up.

06-12-2002, 09:15 AM	#8
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	Wow. I hadn't even thought of the consequences for the people they associated with there in the country, but that is so true. Thanks, brighid and others for bringing that point up, too. I agree, Ivan, there are so many similarities between these people and radical Muslims. I see why they hate us so much at times like these, because to them (much like they are to us), they see the radical fundamentalists more than the more mellow ones. I wouldn't want to live in one of those Muslim countries, and I am not so fond of being here in America where we do have freedom, but the social atmosphere is repulsive. I REALLY hated that the military saved them at our expense. The military shouldn't be saving people who break the law willingly. I also hate when people go do stupid things like climbing a mountain they are not prepared for and have to be rescued. This is even worse, because they are doing something illegal and then get rescued and celebrated for it. So dumb!

06-12-2002, 09:56 AM	#9
Bree Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 3,197	The women are now on a book tour which will raise tons of money for "the glorious cause" - that phrase (which I saw quoted in an online magazine, can't remember which one) cracked me up. It reminds me of Gone With The Wind where Scarlett talks about working for "the glorious cause" - beating back the North, of course. Reminds me how sugar-coated the whole thing is.

06-12-2002, 10:36 AM	#10
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Though I didn't see it, I heard about it today. I'm usually not that outspoken about these things but since it is on my mind, I'll purge. 1. I think it was wrong to go over there with a hidden aggenda particularly in view of the laws. As my understanding, there was an interview with a guy who discussed the negative effects of such aggenda viz. a county like afghan.. 2. The specific and central question, IMO, has to be the interpretation of 'spreading the good news'. I believe, the right way to approach the so-called justification of it is to review the NT to see how 'Laws' and the selling of Christianity was handled. This is the problem with religion and pride. I believe it was Jesus who had great disdain for the human ways of certain religious practice and worship, as I don't think it is all about putting notches in one's belt. Apparently, the girl's felt like that was 'the sole mission' viz. laws that explicitly forbid such a thing. I would be interested to hear from any theist who feels like covert activity of this specific type, under those circumstances, is appropriate. Walrus

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