Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 04-05-2013, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Finally we have the following translation of an inscription to Apollonius:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Translation of Adana inscription by C. P. Jones

'This man, named after Apollo,
and shining forth Tyana,
extinguished the faults of men.
The tomb in Tyana (received) his body,
but in truth heaven received him
so that he might drive out the pains of men
(or:drive pains from among men) .'

--- Ancient inscription, translated C. P. Jones

We might ask whether the Greek inscription supports the following variant translation

'This man, named after Apollo,
and shining forth Tyana,
extinguished the faults sins of men.

You might indeed ask, especially given your agenda and your Greeklessness. But unless you provide us with a transcription in Greek of the Apollonius inscription, we won't be able to say whether, given its wording, it can, let alone does.

So what's the text of the inscription, Pete? And what Greek expressions within it do you think might deserve to be translated as "extinguished" (rather that "might drive out) and "the sins of men" rather than "pains of" or "pains among" men?

The Greek text is available here:
An Epigram on Apollonius of Tyana

C. P. Jones

The Journal of Hellenic Studies
Vol. 100, Centennary Issue (1980), pp. 190-194

Quote:

BTW, Pete. What's the date of this inscription?

Robin Lane Fox suggests it could be as late as the rule of Diocletian.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-05-2013, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Finally we have the following translation of an inscription to Apollonius:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Translation of Adana inscription by C. P. Jones

'This man, named after Apollo,
and shining forth Tyana,
extinguished the faults of men.
The tomb in Tyana (received) his body,
but in truth heaven received him
so that he might drive out the pains of men
(or:drive pains from among men) .'

--- Ancient inscription, translated C. P. Jones

We might ask whether the Greek inscription supports the following variant translation

'This man, named after Apollo,
and shining forth Tyana,
extinguished the faults sins of men.

You might indeed ask, especially given your agenda and your Greeklessness. But unless you provide us with a transcription in Greek of the Apollonius inscription, we won't be able to say whether, given its wording, it can, let alone does.

So what's the text of the inscription, Pete? And what Greek expressions within it do you think might deserve to be translated as "extinguished" (rather that "might drive out) and "the sins of men" rather than "pains of" or "pains among" men?

The Greek text is available here:
An Epigram on Apollonius of Tyana

C. P. Jones

The Journal of Hellenic Studies
Vol. 100, Centennary Issue (1980), pp. 190-194

So .. presuming you have that article to hand, please produce the Greek texts that's available there. Or at the very least, tell me which words within that text are the ones you think could or might bear the meanings you thought they might.

Quote:

BTW, Pete. What's the date of this inscription?

Quote:

Robin Lane Fox suggests it could be as late as the rule of Diocletian.

Where exactly does Lane-Fox suggest this?

And surely, he's not the only one who has made suggestions about the inscription's date. Does not Jones speak to this? How about Miroslav Marcovich in his "The Epigram on Apollonius of Tyana", Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik Bd. 45, (1982), pp. 263-265? What do E. L. Bowie G. Dagron and J. Marcillet Jaubert, who first published and first commented upon the inscription have to say?

And how nice of you to not comment on, or even acknowledge, let alone admit the truth of, what I pointed out to you -- that if it's true, as you seem to want to claim, that the Gospels are based upon, and draw from, Philostratur's VA, you other thesis, desperately argued and defended by you ad nauseam, about how Christians "subverting" the meaning of daimon goes to hell in a hand-basket.

Jeffrey

mountainman · 04-05-2013, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

So .. presuming you have that article to hand, please produce the Greek texts that's available there. Or at the very least, tell me which words within that text are the ones you think could or might bear the meanings you thought they might.

Here is an image:

Quote:

Originally Posted by C.P.JONES

Zu/3corv.

As already mentioned, this verb is some- times used of the 'extinction' of abstract concepts such as 'Fame' or 'Murder'. ~a~au/3cvvivai,and in Latin ex- stinguere, seem to carry a clearer suggestion that the object extinguished is turbulent or destructive, and Christian writers can talk of Christ 'extinguishing' sin.[l6]

[16] Kittel-Friedrich-Bromiley, Theol. Dict. S.V.o Pwv6va~ A 2; LSI S.V. ~a+aofi&upt; TLL S.V.e xsringuo, v. 2 1920, 3 ff.. esp. 254 (Chnstian).

Quote:

BTW, Pete. What's the date of this inscription?

Robin Lane Fox suggests it could be as late as the rule of Diocletian.

Where exactly does Lane-Fox suggest this?

From my notes on "Pagans and Christians"

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTES

Persecution of the Old Religions

• p.666: "The postscript to his Oration at Antioch was to be rather more robust:
torture of pagans "in authority in the city" so that they admitted religious fraud.

• p.671: The list of pagan sites to have suffered under Constantine:

◦ Mambre: a site of great holiness in the Hebrew testament

◦ Jerusalem: shrine of Aphrodite, stood on the site of the crucifixion and sepulchre.

◦ Aphaca: an offensive Phoenician centre of sacred prostitution.

◦ Didyma: Christians seized a prophet of Apollo and had him tortured.

◦ Antioch: Christians seized a prophet of Apollo and had him tortured.

◦ Aigai, in Cilicia: christians raised the shrine of Asclepius.

• p.672: "In the early 340's, we find the first surviving Christian texts which asks for something more,
the total intolerance of pagan worship." [FN:25] - Firmicus, De Errore 16.4

• FOX: "Why were these latter shrines singled out so promptly?

◦ (1) At Aigai, the pagan wise man Apollonius was believed
to have "turned the temple into an Academy":
this temple, or a nearby shrine, had been honoured
with a fine pagan inscription
in honour of "godlike" Apollonius,
perhaps as recently as the reign of Diocletian.

Quote:

And surely, he's not the only one who has made suggestions about the inscription's date. Does not Jones speak to this? How about Miroslav Marcovich in his "The Epigram on Apollonius of Tyana", Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik Bd. 45, (1982), pp. 263-265? What do E. L. Bowie G. Dagron and J. Marcillet Jaubert, who first published and first commented upon the inscription have to say?

I will have to look these reports up and find out.
Thanks.

Quote:

And how nice of you to not comment on, or even acknowledge, let alone admit the truth of, what I pointed out to you -- that if it's true, as you seem to want to claim, that the Gospels are based upon, and draw from, Philostratur's VA, you other thesis, desperately argued and defended by you ad nauseam, about how Christians "subverting" the meaning of daimon goes to hell in a hand-basket.

I am still contemplating the possibilities, to which we may add the way Plotinus uses the term "daimon" in his Enneads.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

outhouse · 04-05-2013, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

2. that Philostratus' portrait of Apollonius is based on the Gospel portrait of Jesus, not the other way around, and, most importantly,

Jeffrey

The problem here is, we don't know. They both could have been using similar themes of that generation and time period.

We do have two distinct characters though despite any debate.

On Pete's side, Jesus legends may have been influenced by Apollonius.

Against Pete's side, it would only be influence and not a historical core to the Jesus legends.

I don't debate Pete, based on his perception and translation of evidence, but he may have a point buried in here somewhere. Its just not worth the hassle investigating.

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-05-2013, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

So .. presuming you have that article to hand, please produce the Greek texts that's available there. Or at the very least, tell me which words within that text are the ones you think could or might bear the meanings you thought they might.

Here is an image:

Zu/3corv.

As already mentioned, this verb is some- times used of the 'extinction' of abstract concepts such as 'Fame' or 'Murder'. ~a~au/3cvvivai,and in Latin ex- stinguere, seem to carry a clearer suggestion that the object extinguished is turbulent or destructive, and Christian writers can talk of Christ 'extinguishing' sin.[l6]

[16] Kittel-Friedrich-Bromiley, Theol. Dict. S.V.o Pwv6va~ A 2; LSI S.V. ~a+aofi&upt; TLL S.V.e xsringuo, v. 2 1920, 3 ff.. esp. 254 (Chnstian).

This verb? Which verb is that?? And what word do you see as the one that might be "sins" rather than "faults/pains"?

Quote:

From my notes on "Pagans and Christians"

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTES

• FOX: "Why were these latter shrines singled out so promptly?

◦ (1) At Aigai, the pagan wise man Apollonius was believed
to have "turned the temple into an Academy":
this temple, or a nearby shrine, had been honoured
with a fine pagan inscription
in honour of "godlike" Apollonius,
perhaps as recently as the reign of Diocletian.

Yes. p. 671. But I note that Lane Fox does not say that the inscription he refers to is the one explored by Jones -- who, BTW, thinks that its location was at Tarsus, not Aigai and that the inscription can be no earlier than the reign of Constantine. Note too that the expression Jones explores does not use the expression "godlike".

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG

And surely, he's not the only one who has made suggestions about the inscription's date. Does not Jones speak to this? How about Miroslav Marcovich in his "The Epigram on Apollonius of Tyana", Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik Bd. 45, (1982), pp. 263-265? What do E. L. Bowie G. Dagron and J. Marcillet Jaubert, who first published and first commented upon the inscription have to say?

Quote:

I will have to look these reports up and find out.
Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG

And how nice of you to not comment on, or even acknowledge, let alone admit the truth of, what I pointed out to you -- that if it's true, as you seem to want to claim, that the Gospels are based upon, and draw from, Philostratur's VA, you other thesis, desperately argued and defended by you ad nauseam, about how Christians "subverting" the meaning of daimon goes to hell in a hand-basket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MM

I am still contemplating the possibilities, to which we may add the way Plotinus uses the term "daimon" in his Enneads.

What possibilities? Your claim is that Christians stories of Jesus are based on and grounded in the VA. The VA is therefore earlier than the Gospels. As you have admitted, the VA clearly uses daimon with the sense of "evil spirit" (and nothing in Plotinus' use of the word changes or effects how Philostratus used it). Therefore the word was used with a sense of "evil" spirit before Christians came to use it.

QED 0n your own logic, Christians did not subvert the word.

Man up, Pete, this is the only possibility if the VA is earlier than the Gospels. Stop trying to weasel out of the conclusion that your own premises demand.

Jeffrey

mountainman · 04-06-2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by C.P.Jones

Zu/3corv.

As already mentioned, this verb is some- times used of the 'extinction' of abstract concepts such as 'Fame' or 'Murder'. ~a~au/3cvvivai,and in Latin ex- stinguere, seem to carry a clearer suggestion that the object extinguished is turbulent or destructive, and Christian writers can talk of Christ 'extinguishing' sin.[l6]

[16] Kittel-Friedrich-Bromiley, Theol. Dict. S.V.o Pwv6va~ A 2; LSI S.V. ~a+aofi&upt; TLL S.V.e xsringuo, v. 2 1920, 3 ff.. esp. 254 (Chnstian).

This verb? Which verb is that??

The word translated as "extinguished".

Quote:

And what word do you see as the one that might be "sins" rather than "faults/pains"?

The one immediately following "extinguished" (ie. here translated as "faults"). It should be noted that the author Jones seems to suggest this himself as cited above, and in the footnote [16].

Alternatively, "drive pains from men", appears a similar theme.

Quote:

From my notes on "Pagans and Christians"

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTES

• FOX: "Why were these latter shrines singled out so promptly?

◦ (1) At Aigai, the pagan wise man Apollonius was believed
to have "turned the temple into an Academy":
this temple, or a nearby shrine, had been honoured
with a fine pagan inscription
in honour of "godlike" Apollonius,
perhaps as recently as the reign of Diocletian.

Yes. p. 671. But I note that Lane Fox does not say that the inscription he refers to is the one explored by Jones

AFAIK there is only one such "generous" inscription extant to Apollonius.

Quote:

-- who, BTW, thinks that its location was at Tarsus, not Aigai and that the inscription can be no earlier than the reign of Constantine.

Jones allows the location of Aegae as follows:

Quote:

The origin of the stone is also uncertain, though it is presumably a place in eastern, 'level', Cilicia. An attractive suggestion, independently made by Bowie and the other two editors, is the coastal city of Aegaeae.

Quote:

Note too that the expression Jones explores does not use the expression "godlike".

But Jones makes mention in his article in a number of places this implication:

Quote:

Originally Posted by C.P. Jones in regard to the "godlike" Apollonius

Thus restored and interpreted, the epigram speaks of Apollonius as a being more than human, if not explicitly as a hero or god.

///

The first steps towards his cult may already have been taken in his lifetime: according to Philostratus, the Spartans were ready to worship him as a god but Apollonius declined 'so as not to incur envy' (VA iv 3 I)

///

The strongly anti-Christian Eunapius declared that Philo- stratus should have called his work not The Life of Apollonius but A Visit of God to Mankind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG

Quote:

Originally Posted by MM

I am still contemplating the possibilities, to which we may add the way Plotinus uses the term "daimon" in his Enneads.

What possibilities? Your claim is that Christians stories of Jesus are based on and grounded in the VA. The VA is therefore earlier than the Gospels. As you have admitted, the VA clearly uses daimon with the sense of "evil spirit" (and nothing in Plotinus' use of the word changes or effects how Philostratus used it). Therefore the word was used with a sense of "evil" spirit before Christians came to use it.

QED 0n your own logic, Christians did not subvert the word.

Philostratus used the term in a biography (Eusebius calls it a history) of Apollonius of Tyana. This biography was not used as a "holy writ" upon which a centralised monotheistic state religious cult was based.

OTOH the gospels were used for such a purpose, and in their use for such a purpose, the gospels were elevated above all other literature. The claim for subversion is also associated with this elevation, which as we all know was accomplished by the Emperor Constantine, when he selected the books of the NT and the LXX as the holy writ for the Roman Empire c.324/325 CE.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

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