Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-31-2010, 09:57 AM

The Secret Legacy of Jesus: The Judaic Teachings That Passed from James the Just to the Founding Fathers (or via: amazon.co.uk)

This sounds like one of those nutty grand conspiracy stories, weaving in the Templars and the Freemasons. But it comes well recommended by James Tabor.

Quote:

On the face of it the thesis of Reverend Jeffrey Bütz’s new book might strike one as far-fetched if not downright absurd, namely that the “true teachings” of Jesus were passed in some underground fashion, down through the ages, and ended up shaping the vision of the Founding Fathers as they forged the principles and ideals of the United States of America. Over the past decade the bookstores have been full of new titles claiming to reveal at last some lost, forgotten, suppressed, hidden, “underground” stream of Christianity, with connections to various esoteric traditions within Western history. The titles speak for themselves: Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The DaVinci Code, The Hiram Key, The Templar Revelation. Few of these works have received the attention, much less the academic endorsement, of mainstream historians, and probably for good reason. They are often long on speculation and short on hard evidence. It would be a mistake for readers to classify Bütz’s latest work in this genre. In contrast, it is a serious work, in touch with mainstream scholarship, and characterized by full references to original source materials.

Admittedly the trail Bütz follows, from Jesus to Jefferson, is a faint one, with many dead ends, twists, and turns. After all, groups such as the Ebionites, the Desposyni, the Elkesaits, and the Cathars are hardly household names. Bütz’s imaginative but careful consideration of evidence pays off and results in a fascinating thesis that informs the very roots of our American culture.

storytime · 01-31-2010, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Secret Legacy of Jesus: The Judaic Teachings That Passed from James the Just to the Founding Fathers (or via: amazon.co.uk)

This sounds like one of those nutty grand conspiracy stories, weaving in the Templars and the Freemasons. But it comes well recommended by James Tabor.

Quote:

On the face of it the thesis of Reverend Jeffrey Bütz’s new book might strike one as far-fetched if not downright absurd, namely that the “true teachings” of Jesus were passed in some underground fashion, down through the ages, and ended up shaping the vision of the Founding Fathers as they forged the principles and ideals of the United States of America. Over the past decade the bookstores have been full of new titles claiming to reveal at last some lost, forgotten, suppressed, hidden, “underground” stream of Christianity, with connections to various esoteric traditions within Western history. The titles speak for themselves: Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The DaVinci Code, The Hiram Key, The Templar Revelation. Few of these works have received the attention, much less the academic endorsement, of mainstream historians, and probably for good reason. They are often long on speculation and short on hard evidence. It would be a mistake for readers to classify Bütz’s latest work in this genre. In contrast, it is a serious work, in touch with mainstream scholarship, and characterized by full references to original source materials.

Admittedly the trail Bütz follows, from Jesus to Jefferson, is a faint one, with many dead ends, twists, and turns. After all, groups such as the Ebionites, the Desposyni, the Elkesaits, and the Cathars are hardly household names. Bütz’s imaginative but careful consideration of evidence pays off and results in a fascinating thesis that informs the very roots of our American culture.

Christians have always sought entry through the backdoor, so to speak. Inventing new angles such as an underground Christ movement into America is simply another ploy to avoid the Hebrew god and his invalidating their claim as his people.

storytime · 02-01-2010, 12:01 AM

I don't want to detour the topic, but point out that from sources I've read, "Judeo-Christianity" is a false face. Jews cannot honor the connection as "the idol" [Jesus] is blasphemous. The name "Christianity" is a cover for "Gentilism,Gentiles", the uncircumcised and lawless people in an attempt to make them equal with the Jews; People whom are not claimed by the Hebrew god. In the NT story Jesus the Jew did not make the connection with Gentiles, he excluded them. Paul's gospel set it [Christ] in a new religious theme.

Chili · 02-01-2010, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I don't want to detour the topic, but point out that from sources I've read, "Judeo-Christianity" is a false face. Jews cannot honor the connection as "the idol" [Jesus] is blasphemous. The name "Christianity" is a cover for "Gentilism,Gentiles", the uncircumcised and lawless people in an attempt to make them equal with the Jews; People whom are not claimed by the Hebrew god. In the NT story Jesus the Jew did not make the connection with Gentiles, he excluded them. Paul's gospel set it [Christ] in a new religious theme.

It is not possible to be a "Christian Jew" unless one is a 'saved sinner' and that is a paradox in itself and much like standing on the very stone you are trying to lift . . . and thus is why Jesus was not a Jew, at least not the Jesus of Luke or he would be a sinner like the rest of them.

It is silly to want to be a Jew if you have a mind of your own and in the end it is equally wrong to want be a Christian if you are one. Why not just "be"? and AM what you are? without attachments and conditions of being? (Aristotle's "Categories).

Chili · 02-01-2010, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

[Christians have always sought entry through the backdoor, so to speak. Inventing new angles such as an underground Christ movement into America is simply another ploy to avoid the Hebrew god and his invalidating their claim as his people.

American Christians have always been just backwards in this respect as one must enter the Church in the front and go out the backdoor to heaven on you own.

storytime · 02-01-2010, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I don't want to detour the topic, but point out that from sources I've read, "Judeo-Christianity" is a false face. Jews cannot honor the connection as "the idol" [Jesus] is blasphemous. The name "Christianity" is a cover for "Gentilism,Gentiles", the uncircumcised and lawless people in an attempt to make them equal with the Jews; People whom are not claimed by the Hebrew god. In the NT story Jesus the Jew did not make the connection with Gentiles, he excluded them. Paul's gospel set it [Christ] in a new religious theme.

It is not possible to be a "Christian Jew" unless one is a 'saved sinner' and that is a paradox in itself and much like standing on the very stone you are trying to lift . . . and thus is why Jesus was not a Jew, at least not the Jesus of Luke or he would be a sinner like the rest of them.

It is silly to want to be a Jew if you have a mind of your own and in the end it is equally wrong to want be a Christian if you are one. Why not just "be"? and AM what you are? without attachments and conditions of being? (Aristotle's "Categories).

That is a paradox for sure. It doesn't look to me like a Jew can claim to be a "Christian Jew" without blasphemy being applied to his person. Were Jews ever allowed to follow anthing but their laws[word of God]? What teaching would have provided Jews allowance to follow a self-anointed priest or sage as the only way,truth and life-style? As they had the Law, what did they need besides the Law? An idol? That was not allowed. Jesus seemed to take it upon himself to make argument with the Pharisees, his conceived rebellious plot to overthrow the rulers at Jerusalem. What made him think that his story was more authoritative than theirs? He told the Pharisees that they "teach for doctrine the commandments of men". Seen is Jewish argument and politics whereof Gentiles had no part of, nor could they as they were never given any Laws to begin with. Gentiles were lawless and uncovenanted. Not a people of the Hebrew god.

Everything in the story points to Jesus as being a Jew. There is no indication of Jesus being a Roman, or other peopled culture and tradition in the non-Jewish Gentile world.

I agree. People should just "be". But you know how that is; it's difficult for people to take advantage of freedom from religion and just say "NO" to Jesus and the Jews.

storytime · 02-01-2010, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

[Christians have always sought entry through the backdoor, so to speak. Inventing new angles such as an underground Christ movement into America is simply another ploy to avoid the Hebrew god and his invalidating their claim as his people.

American Christians have always been just backwards in this respect as one must enter the Church in the front and go out the backdoor to heaven on you own.

I think it's coming down to the wire, so to speak, wherein Christians become forced to actually read their NT bible and understand how Jesus the Jew did not recruit people for any other religion than his Judaism, and understand how the story proceeds with Paul's Gospel that he created for Gentiles. Then they can speculate on why Paul wanted to perform such a task and maybe dig deep into the politics of it.

rob117 · 02-01-2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Secret Legacy of Jesus: The Judaic Teachings That Passed from James the Just to the Founding Fathers (or via: amazon.co.uk)

This sounds like one of those nutty grand conspiracy stories, weaving in the Templars and the Freemasons. But it comes well recommended by James Tabor.

I wouldn't take James Tabor's opinion too seriously. He believes ancient Israelites visited the New World and that Jesus established a "secret dynasty."

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

In 1997 he wrote in the United Israel Bulletin (Vol. 52, Summer 1997, pp. 1-3) writing that he is "tentatively convinced that the Los Lunas inscription offers solid evidence that ancient Israelites explored and settled in the New World in the centuries before the Common Era. Whether we can precisely date this encampment, based on Mr. Deal's astronomical evidence, remains in discussion. However, I have little doubt, nor does Dr. Gordon,(Cyrus Gordon) who is one of the world experts on ancient inscriptions, that the text itself is authentic and was written sometime B.C.E. Beyond this we can not go at this point in time. What is needed is a rigorous archaeological examination of the whole mountain and its human artifacts." He also wrote "However, when the Los Lunas inscription is placed in the wider context of an abundant amount of evidence, such as that presented by Dr. Fell, that ancient Mediterranean peoples did visit the New World, it becomes not only plausible but perhaps the only logical explanation for the existence of this text." Dr. Fell is Barry Fell, former professor of invertebrate zoology at Harvard who later wrote the book America B.C. which Tabor relies upon in this article. Tabor states that the "historical and archaeological evidence" for "ancient Mediterranean peoples" to have travelled to the New World sometime BCE "is quite impressive. It has been well documented by Barry Fell in his major study, America B.C." Fell's work is however rejected by virtually all archaeologists and historians.

In 2006 Tabor published a controversial book titled The Jesus Dynasty that interprets Jesus as an apocalyptic Messiah whose extended family founded a royal dynasty in the days before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. He included archaeological data as well as textual interpretations of biblical texts, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and ancient historical sources. The form of Christianity that grew out of this movement, led by the apostle Paul, was, according to Tabor, a decisive break with the Ebionite-like original teachings of John the Baptiser and Jesus.

Note that Cyrus Gordon, referred to by Tabor in the first paragraph, is also a nutcase.

gurugeorge · 02-02-2010, 12:07 PM

I don't think there's anything far-fetched at all about tracing lines of influence through "heretical" Europeans (e.g. Gnostic remnants, Cathars, that type of thing) all the way through the "occult" traditions of the West, and through Freemasonry, as they influenced politics during the 16th and 17th centuries, down to the principles espoused by the Founding Fathers. It's not that there's necessarily any single common thread running all the way (i.e. the traditions are definitely broken from what they originally were, if only because it must be very difficult to keep a tradition going coherently sub rosa), but there are lots of skeins with people of like mind doing their best to secretly and subtly try and influence society, and few "key players" here and there.

An interesting book to check out in this regard is The Theosophical Enlightenment (or via: amazon.co.uk), by Joceyln Godwin.

Actually, some of the oft-criticised mythicist works of the 19th century come from a closely-related strand of ideas and activity; Godwin traces this.

Solo · 02-02-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This sounds like one of those nutty grand conspiracy stories, weaving in the Templars and the Freemasons. But it comes well recommended by James Tabor.

"But".... it comes well recommended by James Tabor ? Should that not be an "And" ?

This is, I trust, the same James Tabor who claimed in The Jesus Dynasty that Jesus was the son of a Roman soldier Pantera but then reversed himself under the weight of the epochal discovery of the James' ossuary.

Jiri

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02-01-2010, 12:01 AM	#3
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	I don't want to detour the topic, but point out that from sources I've read, "Judeo-Christianity" is a false face. Jews cannot honor the connection as "the idol" [Jesus] is blasphemous. The name "Christianity" is a cover for "Gentilism,Gentiles", the uncircumcised and lawless people in an attempt to make them equal with the Jews; People whom are not claimed by the Hebrew god. In the NT story Jesus the Jew did not make the connection with Gentiles, he excluded them. Paul's gospel set it [Christ] in a new religious theme.

02-02-2010, 12:07 PM	#9
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	I don't think there's anything far-fetched at all about tracing lines of influence through "heretical" Europeans (e.g. Gnostic remnants, Cathars, that type of thing) all the way through the "occult" traditions of the West, and through Freemasonry, as they influenced politics during the 16th and 17th centuries, down to the principles espoused by the Founding Fathers. It's not that there's necessarily any single common thread running all the way (i.e. the traditions are definitely broken from what they originally were, if only because it must be very difficult to keep a tradition going coherently sub rosa), but there are lots of skeins with people of like mind doing their best to secretly and subtly try and influence society, and few "key players" here and there. An interesting book to check out in this regard is The Theosophical Enlightenment (or via: amazon.co.uk), by Joceyln Godwin. Actually, some of the oft-criticised mythicist works of the 19th century come from a closely-related strand of ideas and activity; Godwin traces this.

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