Freethought & Rationalism Archive

maryhelena · 01-27-2012, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The notewothy thing here being that by the letter of The Law, (Deut 21:23) simply being hung (or impaled) upon wood, was enough to bring the curse into effect regardless of that persons guilt or innocence.

And that is perhaps one reason why Josephus does not mention that Antigonus was bound to a stake/cross, and scourged before he was slain. A King and High Priest of the Jews accursed is not something that would bare thinking about. Perhaps something that has not been taken into account when considering the different account of Antigonus's death in Cassius Dio and Josephus.

Ancient Jewish and Christian perceptions of crucifixion: David W. Chapman

Quote:

Page 70

The penalty was certainly among the worst possible punishments, being specifically treated in several places as the greatest misfortune to befall a man. In Roman literature, barbarian peoples are frequently said to crucify, thus insinuating a kind of barbarous feel to the penalty. Lately, many writers have emphasized the great shame attached to such a penalty - a naked man, beaten and ridiculed, hanging for all to see while he slowly dies, his carcass becoming food for birds. Naturally, these perceptions often are mirrored in the Jewish sources. However, since Jewish revolutionaries, especially in the first century CE, frequently suffered the horrors of the cross, our sources sometimes favour the vantage point of the victims over that of their Roman oppressors.

Footnote on page 70

Therefore, save for the fairly remote possibility that Josephus may have wished to downplay any crucifixion overtones in this story (such a claim would require both Dio’s account to be accurate, and Josephus to have known about the scourging ) there are no extant Jewish perceptions of crucifixion tied to this event.

Pages 8 - 12

Latin Terminology

The English terminology has roots in the Latin verb crucifigo........to fasten to a crux. A crux was a wooden instrument of execution upon which a person was suspended. Other terms may be used to refer to the victim or to indicate verbally the action of crucifixion. It is common for modern authors to distinguish four shapes of crosses: crux immissa......crux commissa....the Greek cross...and crux decussate or St Andrew’s cross. The cross bar of the crux, a kind of yoke, is sometimes designated a patibulum. Criminals can also be spoken of as being fixed to a pole/stake (palus, sudis) or to a piece of wood (lignum).
However, even the so-called technical terminology could give the misleading impression that execution via the crux had only a limited range of shapes and practices. A well-known quote from Seneca indicates otherwise........(“I see there crosses, not merely of one kind, but fashioned differently by others: a certain one suspends (a person)with his head upside down towards the ground, others impale a stake through the sexual organs, others extend the arms by a yoke (patibulum)".. Understanding the three clauses beginning with capite as explications of “video istic cruces...”, then even impaling of the genitals on a stipes (“tree, branch”) can be considered affixing to a crux. That Seneca distinguished what he “saw” from any possible expectations to a unity of appearances of the cross (“non unius quidem generis”) may show both (1) that under the Romans in this time execution on the cross tended to follow a fairly common routine, and (2) that there could be significant exceptions that are designated by the same terminology. Indeed the affixing of a dead body to a crux could also be described as a crucifixion in Latin.
Thus a variety of words could be used to speak of crucifixion, and even the most technical Latin terms could refer to the suspension of humans in ways only vaguely resembling execution on a crux immissa. This relative flexibility in terminology is all the more obvious in the extant Greek sources.

Greek Terminology

Nevertheless, in Greek it is rare for the semantic range of any single term to be confined to “crucifixion”. For example a******appears originally to have referred to an upright pole. ......Hence it naturally follows that both. **** and **** can refer to the building of stockades as well as to the setting up of poles (especially for the purpose of suspending people on *****). Elsewhere a ****can be used as a place of scouring, with the death following from some other method.
A ****likewise generally refers to “anything pointed” including pales, stakes, thorns, a point of a fishhook, and (in the plural) a palisade.
However, the “fundamental” references to an upright pole in ****and its cognates, and to pointy objects in **** and its cognates, does not rightly imply such that terminology in antiquity, when applied to crucifixion, invariable referred to a single upright beam. This is a common word study fallacy in some populist literature. In fact, such terminology often referred in antiquity to cross-shaped crucifixion devices. For example, Lucian, in a brief dialogue that employs most Greek crucifixion vocabulary, refers to the “crucifixion” of Prometheus, whose arms are pinned while stretched from one rock to another. Such a cross-shaped crucifixion position in the Roman era may actually have been the norm; nevertheless, the point to be sustained at this stage is that this position was not the only one to be designated with these Greek terms.

Perhaps most importantly, there is often ambiguity in crucifixion and suspension accounts as to whether the person is being suspended before or after death. So, Josephus, while most often utilizing **** to indicate a means of execution, can also say that the Philistines “crucified” the dead bodies of Saul and his sons “to the walls of the city of Bethsan”.

Ancient Jewish and Christian perceptions of crucifixion: David W. Chapman (or via: amazon.co.uk)

(all the *********relate to Greek in the quotations)

la70119 · 01-27-2012, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

(all the *********relate to Greek in the quotations)

Maryhelena, it would have been more helpful if you could have included the actual Greek words instead of just using asterisks. Not all of us know what Greek words Mr. Chapman is referring to, unlike others like me, who can figure it out.

You can use this Greek Word Study Tool. It even has a letter and diacritical mark entry legend.

maryhelena · 01-27-2012, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

(all the *********relate to Greek in the quotations)

Maryhelena, it would have been more helpful if you could have included the actual Greek words instead of just using asterisks. Not all of us know what Greek words Mr. Chapman is referring to, unlike others like me, who can figure it out.

You can use this Greek Word Study Tool. It even has a letter and diacritical mark entry legend.

I gave the page numbers - and the link - so it's pretty easy to go read the Greek words. I don't know Greek - so trying to be clever re attempting to give that impression is not what I'm interested in doing....

stephan huller · 01-27-2012, 02:18 PM

The critical point in Deuteronomy 21 was BEING LEFT on the wood not merely being hanged.

la70119 · 01-27-2012, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Maryhelena, it would have been more helpful if you could have included the actual Greek words instead of just using asterisks. Not all of us know what Greek words Mr. Chapman is referring to, unlike others like me, who can figure it out.

You can use this Greek Word Study Tool. It even has a letter and diacritical mark entry legend.

I gave the page numbers - and the link - so it's pretty easy to go read the Greek words. I don't know Greek - so trying to be clever re attempting to give that impression is not what I'm interested in doing....

The pages you gave are skipped by Amazon.

la70119 · 01-27-2012, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The critical point in Deuteronomy 21 was BEING LEFT on the wood not merely being hanged.

Exactly. They're supposed to stay there all day and if hanged alive, as long as it takes until the end of the day of their death. The burial was supposed to be quick and ignominious.

The rabbis who wrote the Mishnah later on changed all that because Sanhedrin 6 talks about one untying the ropes as another finishes tying them.

stephan huller · 01-27-2012, 02:42 PM

This reference in the Gospel of Truth is particularly puzzling to me:

Quote:

For this reason Jesus appeared. He took that book as his own. He was nailed to a cross. He affixed the edict of the Father to the cross.

Oh, such great teaching! He abases himself even unto death, though he is clothed in eternal life. Having divested himself of these perishable rags, he clothed himself in incorruptibility, which no one could possibly take from him.

It must develop from Ephesians identification of 'enmity' being crucified on the cross

maryhelena · 01-27-2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Maryhelena, it would have been more helpful if you could have included the actual Greek words instead of just using asterisks. Not all of us know what Greek words Mr. Chapman is referring to, unlike others like me, who can figure it out.

You can use this Greek Word Study Tool. It even has a letter and diacritical mark entry legend.

I gave the page numbers - and the link - so it's pretty easy to go read the Greek words. I don't know Greek - so trying to be clever re attempting to give that impression is not what I'm interested in doing....

The pages you gave are skipped by Amazon.

I just checked amazon - pages 8 to 11 are available. No page 12 unfortunately. The same on google books - but page 13 is available with Hebrew and Aramaic terminology. It looks like page preview changes at whim. I originally typed quotations from google books. Here is a za link - don't know if it will work for you. It's an interesting book by the look of things. If all else fails you might try your local library.

http://books.google.co.za/books?id=E...nology&f=false

lmbarre · 01-27-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by barre

What is the evidence for or against a Roman crucifixion of Jesus?

The crucifixion of Jesus is found in almost every early historical source that mentions Jesus, both Christian and non-Christian (Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius and so on), so it is multiply attested. It is a claim that is plausible, because Roman governors often crucified threats to the Roman state. And it is an ideologically awkward thing to claim about the Jewish messiah, who was expected to be a conquering military hero, which means it is an unlikely product of myth if the myth was not driven by a known reality. So I would say that the most certain thing about the historical Jesus is that he was Jewish, and the second-most certain thing is that he was crucified.

The idea that Jesus was crucified by the Roman is widely attested as the above quote states. It is found in the synoptic gospels, in gospel sources (such as gMark), in Acts, Paul, Deutero-Pauline, Pastoral epistle (1 Timothy) 1 Peter, Hebrews as well as in secular sources mentioned in the above quote. How is the popularity of this notion best explained? Was it the result of an actual crucifixion of Jesus or whas it perhaps such an appealing fictional account that it "caught on?" Or is there another explanation to account for its widespread attestation?

Vorkosigan · 01-27-2012, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barre

The idea that Jesus was crucified by the Roman is widely attested as the above quote states. It is found in the synoptic gospels, in gospel sources (such as gMark), in Acts, Paul, Deutero-Pauline, Pastoral epistle (1 Timothy) 1 Peter, Hebrews as well as in secular sources mentioned in the above quote. How is the popularity of this notion best explained? Was it the result of an actual crucifixion of Jesus or whas it perhaps such an appealing fictional account that it "caught on?" Or is there another explanation to account for its widespread attestation?

You're confusing mentioned in many accounts with widespread attestation, not to mention misrepresenting: nowhere do any of the early documents, including Paul, say Jesus was crucified by the Romans, for example.

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01-27-2012, 02:18 PM	#104
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The critical point in Deuteronomy 21 was BEING LEFT on the wood not merely being hanged.

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