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06-30-2006, 04:10 AM | #811 | |
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07-01-2006, 09:14 AM | #812 | ||
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The entire sequence is pure fiction, but, unlike Mark and Luke, I'm not inclined to invent something to replace it. Quote:
As I've said elsewhere, I have not seen a "version" of Mark's gospel that's been stripped of derivations, errors and inventions. I think such a revision would be a very small pamphlet indeed. If that. Didymus |
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07-01-2006, 12:07 PM | #813 | ||||
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07-02-2006, 06:17 PM | #814 | ||
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07-02-2006, 07:35 PM | #815 |
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Of course it’s easy to find examples of supernatural elements in the Gospel accounts (and even natural ones) that pass credibility. But let me choose an example of the sort of thing that I think of as possibly being historical.
We know (independently of the Gospel accounts) that Herod Antipas, ruler of Galilee and Peraea, married Herodias, who had previously been married to his brother, in contravention of Jewish law. The Lukan account tells us that John the Baptist was imprisoned and executed by Herod (that is, Herod Antipas) after criticising his marriage to Herodias. It also tells us that Herod (Antipas) heard tell of Jesus, associated him with John, and sought after him, and that Jesus then ‘removed to a desert place’. Later, it tells us that Jesus was brought before Pilate, that Pilate was told that he was a Galilean, and that Pilate then sent him to Herod (Antipas), who had wanted to see him for a long time. These elements of the Lukan account seem fairly plausible to me. Since the marriage of Antipas and Herodias contravened Jewish law, it’s quite likely that devout Jews would have been critical of it. On the other hand, a preacher who openly criticised it, as John the Baptist is supposed to have done, might well have been first imprisoned and then executed for sedition. We might reasonably continue the story with details not found in the Lukan account along the following lines: Jesus also criticised the marriage, was also in danger of arrest for sedition, and left the jurisdiction. When, coincidentally, he later fell into Pilate’s hands, and Pilate then discovered that he was a Galilean, Pilate could have referred the matter to Antipas as falling within his jurisdiction. Although there’s no direct evidence for this, I can’t see any reason why it couldn’t have been Antipas who condemned Jesus to death for sedition, asking Pilate, as the local authority, to carry out the sentence. I see no reason why these details might not have been left out of the Lukan account in the same way that the whole incident of Pilate’s referral to Antipas was omitted from the other Gospel accounts. Both omissions make sense to me as part of the evident desire of the Gospel writers to present the story of the crucifixion, for obvious contemporary political and polemical reasons, in a way which inculpated the Jews and exculpated the Romans as much as possible. Obviously I can’t say that is what happened. But it is an explanation for the few references to Herod Antipas remaining in the Lukan account. I suppose it’s also possible that they were ‘merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing account’, but it’s hard to see a strong motive for anybody to contrive entirely fictitious references to Herod Antipas at the probable time of the composition of the Gospels. He was a dead letter by then. Note again that I do not suggest that the presence of a few vestigial historical details (if they are historical) necessarily adds to the credibility of the remainder of the Gospel accounts. |
07-02-2006, 08:05 PM | #816 | |
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07-03-2006, 09:42 AM | #817 |
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I am an ex-xian who has come to see the gospel story and Jesus - as presented there - a myth.
I've read all of the books on the subject I could get my hands on. Some were a little hard to swallow, although they were interesting. I'd put Acharya S. and Freke and Gandy in that category. Others I found highly plausible and very tough to find holes in their reasoning. I put Pagels, Doherty and Price there. (Although Elaine Pagels is not a mythicist) Price - in his "Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" talks at length (convincingly) about the crucifixion of Jesus being an amalgamation of OT phrases and ideas - with nothing left over. Of course, to fundies - it appears that it's prophecy fulfilled. To a more skeptical eye, it would appear that the writer of the gospels (particularly Mark's) used the OT to research and establish the circumstances of this event - in fabricating the story. |
07-03-2006, 10:02 AM | #818 | ||
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07-03-2006, 10:37 AM | #819 | |
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07-03-2006, 11:08 AM | #820 | |
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Maybe these alleged holes are not there, and believing they are betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how human minds work and socially construct myth, story, ritual and religion. Pagels, I think, is only in a historicist camp because the implications have not been thought through - her latest book, beyond belief, I think means she is mythicist in all but name - but I think xians are really mythicist, as krosero's post shows! |
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