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Old 06-30-2006, 04:10 AM   #811
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Originally Posted by jakejonesiv
Sparrow, I believe you are right. There is no archeological evidence of Christians in 1st century Palestine. My guess is that there weren't any. ymmv.
So where, geographically, would you guess Christianity began? And why?
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Old 07-01-2006, 09:14 AM   #812
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See the subtle difference in emphasis? You're asking the question, what led to the creation of the Jesus story? But I'm asking the quesiton, what led to the creation of the Jesus movement?
At this point we don't have an alternative to the Christian explanation for the beginnings of the "movement," i.e., an empty tomb and post-resurrection appearances. According to Luke/Acts, following these events there were great mass conversions in Jerusalem.

The entire sequence is pure fiction, but, unlike Mark and Luke, I'm not inclined to invent something to replace it.

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According to your categorisation, a theory that posits a historical individual who resembled the Jesus of the gospels in 'major elements of biography' is a 'Historical Jesus' theory. On that basis, in order to define what counts as a 'Historical Jesus' theory, we need to know which are the major elements of the biography of the Jesus of the gospels. You tell me what those are and I'll tell you whether or not I subscribe to a 'Historical Jesus'.
I'm not interested in defining historical-Jesus theory right now, nor am I particularly interested in knowing whether or not you "subscribe to a 'Historical Jesus.'" Surely you can make that determination for yourself, J-D!

As I've said elsewhere, I have not seen a "version" of Mark's gospel that's been stripped of derivations, errors and inventions. I think such a revision would be a very small pamphlet indeed. If that.

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Old 07-01-2006, 12:07 PM   #813
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I think everything that goes much beyond "crucifixion of an obscure, saintly man named Jesus" is a later embellishment. The Eucharist? A mythical embellishment. The Trial before the Sanhedrin? A pseudo-historical embellishment. The list includes just about everything that appears in all four gospels.
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I don't see how you can say positively that every one of those things must have been an embellishment. It would seem to me more prudent to leave room for the possibility that some of them may be historically accurate, or partly so.
The gospel narratives may contain some residual elements from the actual event, but it's hard to know for sure. To give you an idea of how little is based on history, here's an excerpt from Turton's Commentary on the Gospel of Mark. For the complete commentary, with proper formatting, see http://users2.ev1.net/%7Eturton/GMark/GMark15.html:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Turton
2: And Pilate asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" And he answered him, "You have said so."

v2: The Gospel of Mark does not contain enough evidence to warrant any conclusion about the legality of Pilate's trial under Roman law and custom. As Brown (1994, p726) points out, the account of the trial of Jesus ben Ananus (see below) in Josephus would probably look fairly implausible if anyone cared to make a case like that brought against the trial of Jesus under Pilate, but no scholar has ever challenged it.

v2: Pilate asks if Jesus is the King of the Jews, although that term has never been used in the Gospel, including during the Sanhedrin trial. Since the writer does not say that the Jewish leaders gave Pilate any information, why didn't Pilate start out with more basic questions of the "where are you from?/what is your name?" variety?

v2: As with the Sanhedrin, the accuser asks after Jesus' true identity, but in the Trial before Pilate the order is reversed; Jesus' silence follows rather than precedes the question.

v2: Historically, the first use of the title "King of the Jews" was by the Hasmonean high priests when they established an independent Jewish state in Palestine a century or so before this time. Herod the Great also styled himself "King of the Jews." (Brown 1994, p731).

v2: in a rare instance of agreement, in all four canonical gospels the Greek of this line is exactly the same.

v2: Recall that Greek had no punctuation. Hence, in Greek this exchange is marvelously ambiguous, as either figure speaking could be asking a question or making a statement. It could read as Pilate saying "You are the king of the Jews" and Jesus replying "Are you saying so?" The narrator has clarified this by defining Pilate's comment as a question, leaving the ostensible ambiguity in Jesus' answer.(Fowler 1996, p198)

5: But Jesus made no further answer, so that Pilate wondered.


v5: Jesus' silence recalls Isaiah 53:7:

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (NIV)

Note also that in the discourse in Mark 13, Jesus told his followers not to be anxious about what to say, but that the Holy Spirit would speak for them. Another fulfillment of Mark 13 as a Passion prediction.

v5: A. Y. Collins (1994) has also identified Psalm 38 in the background here:

11: My friends and companions stand aloof from my plague, and my kinsmen stand afar off.
12: Those who seek my life lay their snares, those who seek my hurt speak of ruin, and meditate treachery all the day long.
13: But I am like a deaf man, I do not hear, like a dumb man who does not open his mouth.
14: Yea, I am like a man who does not hear, and in whose mouth are no rebukes.(RSV)

Psalm 38 has also been identified with 15:40-1, the watching women, as well.

v5: Pilate functions as an effective double of King Herod in Mark 6:14-29) in the this scene. As Mary Ann Tolbert(1989) points out, Pilate:

"...like King Herod before him, initially responds positively to the man in his custody. Pilate, indeed, as the narrator informs the audience, recognizes that the accusation against Jesus arises out of the envy of the chief priests (15:10) rather than out of any crime Jesus has committed and seeks to release him (15:9, 12, 14). However, also as with King Herod, Pilate's nobler instincts collapse under the press of expediency..."(p273)

6: Now at the feast he used to release for them one prisoner for whom they asked. 7: And among the rebels in prison, who had committed murder in the insurrection, there was a man called Barab'bas.

v6-7: Barabbas, literally "son of the father" is a probable doublet for Jesus himself (the Son of the Father). Indeed, there are manuscripts of Matthew that have "Jesus Barabbas" in this passage, and this must have been the case in the early days of Christianity, for Origen defensively insists that many manuscripts of Matthew in his time did not contain the offensive "Jesus" before "Barabbas." As a consequence some scholars have argued that this was the original usage in Mark (which Matthew copied) although this is a minority view. "Abba" was also a personal name in ancient Judaism, so the name may simply mean "Son of Abba."

The custom of releasing prisoners for feasts is not known anywhere in the Roman empire; occasionally prisoners were released on feast days as a specific act of clemency, but, as Crossan argues (1991, p390-1), Roman governors were more likely to postpone the execution or allow the family to bury the body, if they were inclined to clemency. Indeed, Origen, writing two hundred years later in the same part of the world, was surprised to find such a custom claimed in the Gospels. Pilate was not known for his mercy (see accounts in Philo or Josephus) but it is true that our only accounts of his governship come from his enemies. Pilate releasing Barabbas to a Jewish crowd is unlikely (Barabbas could hardly have been the only prisoner in Pilate's hands, so why release a bandit and murderer?), and further, it seems incredible that Pilate would release someone the crowd demanded, who is a known anti-Roman rebel and murderer. Finally, Barabbas himself appears to be fictional. The historical plausibility of this aspect of the scene is low.

v6-7: Some exegetes have argued that this scene is based on Esther. Tim Callahan (2004) notes:

"In a play given during Zagmuku, two actors portrayed characters who were the source of the roles of Mordecai and Haman in Esther, in that one expects royal honors but is put to death, while one seems destined for death but escapes with his life. This would also seem to be the source of Jesus called the Christ and Jesus Barabbas."
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On such a theory, it still seems likely to me that the first Christians or, if you prefer, members of the Jesus movement would have been people who were followers of his in life.
The gospels were derived from OT sources, not from stories told by his followers. If you will recall, not even the earliest writings (Paul, Mark) offer any hint of eyewitness testimony.

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Old 07-02-2006, 06:17 PM   #814
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Originally Posted by Didymus
At this point we don't have an alternative to the Christian explanation for the beginnings of the "movement," i.e., an empty tomb and post-resurrection appearances. According to Luke/Acts, following these events there were great mass conversions in Jerusalem.

The entire sequence is pure fiction, but, unlike Mark and Luke, I'm not inclined to invent something to replace it.
I’m sorry to have to contradict you so flatly, but that isn’t the Christian explanation for the beginning of the Jesus movement. The Christian explanation for the beginning of the movement is that followers gathered around Jesus while he was alive, and that still seems the simplest and most obvious explanation to me, and it is independent of any crucifixion or post-crucifixion events.
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Originally Posted by Didymus
I'm not interested in defining historical-Jesus theory right now, nor am I particularly interested in knowing whether or not you "subscribe to a 'Historical Jesus.'" Surely you can make that determination for yourself, J-D!
It’s not a question of whether I can, it’s a question of whether I want to, as you will see if you refer back to my first post to this thread, in which I said I didn’t care about the issue of categorisation. So long as nobody is going to assume that there is a contradiction between my favouring the view that the Jesus movement began with a historical flesh-and-blood preacher leading it, on the one hand, and not endorsing other views supposed to be part of ‘Historical Jesus’ theory, on the other, then I’ve got no problem. It irks me slightly that some posters draw unwarranted inferences from the views I have expressed to my views about, for example, the reliability of the Gospel accounts. There aren’t necessarily any such contradictions and there aren’t necessarily any such inferences.
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Old 07-02-2006, 07:35 PM   #815
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Of course it’s easy to find examples of supernatural elements in the Gospel accounts (and even natural ones) that pass credibility. But let me choose an example of the sort of thing that I think of as possibly being historical.

We know (independently of the Gospel accounts) that Herod Antipas, ruler of Galilee and Peraea, married Herodias, who had previously been married to his brother, in contravention of Jewish law.

The Lukan account tells us that John the Baptist was imprisoned and executed by Herod (that is, Herod Antipas) after criticising his marriage to Herodias. It also tells us that Herod (Antipas) heard tell of Jesus, associated him with John, and sought after him, and that Jesus then ‘removed to a desert place’. Later, it tells us that Jesus was brought before Pilate, that Pilate was told that he was a Galilean, and that Pilate then sent him to Herod (Antipas), who had wanted to see him for a long time.

These elements of the Lukan account seem fairly plausible to me. Since the marriage of Antipas and Herodias contravened Jewish law, it’s quite likely that devout Jews would have been critical of it. On the other hand, a preacher who openly criticised it, as John the Baptist is supposed to have done, might well have been first imprisoned and then executed for sedition. We might reasonably continue the story with details not found in the Lukan account along the following lines: Jesus also criticised the marriage, was also in danger of arrest for sedition, and left the jurisdiction. When, coincidentally, he later fell into Pilate’s hands, and Pilate then discovered that he was a Galilean, Pilate could have referred the matter to Antipas as falling within his jurisdiction. Although there’s no direct evidence for this, I can’t see any reason why it couldn’t have been Antipas who condemned Jesus to death for sedition, asking Pilate, as the local authority, to carry out the sentence. I see no reason why these details might not have been left out of the Lukan account in the same way that the whole incident of Pilate’s referral to Antipas was omitted from the other Gospel accounts. Both omissions make sense to me as part of the evident desire of the Gospel writers to present the story of the crucifixion, for obvious contemporary political and polemical reasons, in a way which inculpated the Jews and exculpated the Romans as much as possible.

Obviously I can’t say that is what happened. But it is an explanation for the few references to Herod Antipas remaining in the Lukan account. I suppose it’s also possible that they were ‘merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing account’, but it’s hard to see a strong motive for anybody to contrive entirely fictitious references to Herod Antipas at the probable time of the composition of the Gospels. He was a dead letter by then.

Note again that I do not suggest that the presence of a few vestigial historical details (if they are historical) necessarily adds to the credibility of the remainder of the Gospel accounts.
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Old 07-02-2006, 08:05 PM   #816
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Ultra-loser? One who conquers death itself?
Just for information. Are there any organisms in earth which do not have death per se.
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Old 07-03-2006, 09:42 AM   #817
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I am an ex-xian who has come to see the gospel story and Jesus - as presented there - a myth.

I've read all of the books on the subject I could get my hands on. Some were a little hard to swallow, although they were interesting. I'd put Acharya S. and Freke and Gandy in that category.

Others I found highly plausible and very tough to find holes in their reasoning. I put Pagels, Doherty and Price there. (Although Elaine Pagels is not a mythicist)

Price - in his "Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" talks at length (convincingly) about the crucifixion of Jesus being an amalgamation of OT phrases and ideas - with nothing left over.

Of course, to fundies - it appears that it's prophecy fulfilled. To a more skeptical eye, it would appear that the writer of the gospels (particularly Mark's) used the OT to research and establish the circumstances of this event - in fabricating the story.
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:02 AM   #818
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Tim Callahan (2004) notes:

"In a play given during Zagmuku, two actors portrayed characters who were the source of the roles of Mordecai and Haman in Esther, in that one expects royal honors but is put to death, while one seems destined for death but escapes with his life. This would also seem to be the source of Jesus called the Christ and Jesus Barabbas."
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The Clemency of Pilate

In all the gospel accounts Pilate’s first words to Jesus are Are you the King of the Jews?but only John relates in some detail the exchange that ensued. Accor ding to Mark, Matthew and Luke, the exchange between Pilate and Jesus was limited to the question Are you the King of the Jews? and the answer, You say. From the synoptic gospels one could gather the impression that You say is all that Jesus ever said in the entire procedure before Pilate. John, whose account of this episode is more complete, agrees on this important point. To be abso lute ly exact, according to the three synoptic gospels Jesus would have answered, You say and according to the gospel of John, You say that I am king.

To Pilate’s question Are you the King of the Jews? Jesus answers with a question that aims at establishing what Pilate means by King of the Jews. There follows an exchange in which Jesus tries to explain that if he is a king he is not a king in the ordinary sense of the word:

My kingdom does not belong to this world

If my kingdom belonged to this world,

My followers would fight [for me].

No, my kingdom does not belong to this world.

The contradictions inherent in kingship was a favorite theme of Seneca; he returns to it again and again in his plays. In his Thyestes the chorus tries to define what constitutes a true king:

You do not realize, in your craving for palaces,

wherein kingship consists. It is not wealth

Nor the purple robe nor the royal tiara...


It is the sound mind which possesses true kingship, and a king so defined has no need of horses nor of armor...

That Pilate approached the problem of Jesus from a philosophical angle is evident from his response to Jesus’ declaration that his kingdom was not of this world:

:So then, you are a king?[1]

Pilate, from his skeptical point of view, cut short Jesus’ metaphysical argument and, ignoring subtle dis tinc tions, asked him whether he granted to be a king. Pilate’s question was a rhetorical one and did not require an answer, since the answer was implied in what had been said before. Pilate was taking a typical Skeptic position. A major thrust of Skeptic philo sophy was to oppose the search for essences or for the intrinsic qualities of things. There is no point in arguing about the true nature of objectsthey are what they appear to be.

Jesus’ response is reported in John’s gospel as

You say that I am a king.

As in the case of the questioning before the Jewish religious authorities, Jesus’ answer should be referred to the original Latin, where it carries the meaning:

King is the title that you are bestowing upon me.

A line of argument similar to that adopted by Jesus in answering Pilate was adopted by Caesar in the period that immediately preceded his assassination. Because Caesar had been granted extraordinary powers, because he had been made the object of religious honors, because he sat on a throne and wore a crown, there was in Rome an intense debate and a resulting explosive political tension on the question of whether Caesar claimed to be a king. Caesar skirted the issue by taking a leaf from Stoic philosophy and proclaiming: My name is Caesar, not king.[2]

The Stoics, in contrast to the Skeptics, insisted that one should reject arbitrary designations and go directly to the truth. Accordingly Jesus parried Pilate’s attempt at categorizing him as a king and went directly to the truth, the truth which he had been born to proclaim:

I was born and came into the world for this one purpose

To be a witness to the truth

Whoever belongs to the truth listens to my voice.

But Seneca, with his unique gift for encapsulating an entire complex of ideas in a single line of dialogue, gives the last word to Pilate:

:And what is truth?

Pilate’s question was again a rhetorical one and had the finality of a categorical assertion. The conclusion of the questioning inside the praetorium was indicated by Pilate’s stepping outside to announce his findings to the waiting crowd (Jn. 18:38):

Then Pilate went back outside to the Jews and said to them:

I do not find any guilt in him.

According to Luke, Pilate’s response to the crowd ended with the lines:

There is nothing this man has done to deserve death.

I will have him whipped, then, and let him go.

www,nazarenus.com
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Old 07-03-2006, 10:37 AM   #819
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Others I found highly plausible and very tough to find holes in their reasoning. I put Pagels, Doherty and Price there. (Although Elaine Pagels is not a mythicist)
The catch is that it can take expertise, or a willingness to seek out expertise, to find the holes. Take a look, for example, at the comments of Ben C Smith, S. C. Carlson, Chris Weimer, or jgibson000 on Doherty.
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Old 07-03-2006, 11:08 AM   #820
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holes
God is wonderful, everywhere all these intelligently designed holes for me to fit into, said the puddle.

Maybe these alleged holes are not there, and believing they are betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how human minds work and socially construct myth, story, ritual and religion.

Pagels, I think, is only in a historicist camp because the implications have not been thought through - her latest book, beyond belief, I think means she is mythicist in all but name - but I think xians are really mythicist, as krosero's post shows!
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