Spitfire

I don't know how to explain what I said any other way except that I do not advocate going into Muslim countries and bombing anyone or meddling in their politics. But we must be willing to fight back, in defense of ourselves, even if we rightly object to unnecessary violence. We must not be intimidated. We must refuse to have anything to do with Islam and, if it can be contained, Islam will turn upon itself and destroy itself. That is my plan. I see this as a primarily spiritual battle though I hope Europe will not shrink from military action if it becomes clear that we have no choice.

epepke

We had a thread on this a couple of days ago, and even though I posted a comment that to me seemed productive, there seems to be no evidence that anybody paid the slightest bit of attention.

So now there's another one. And to what purpose? So that you can declare over and over again that nobody cares, and it's just Islamophobia?

Fuck that.

Rathpig

Ok my thoughts (and yes this is mainly a political topic, but we are seeing in the moderator movement of this thread to GRD the close interaction between the political Islam and the religious Islam. It is hard to tell sometimes.)

Graeme, I have will say that you are correct in substance on both points you listed. But neither of the points fully describes the situation the world faces with Islam. A non-violent solution unfortunately is very difficult because the violence is being dictated by the religion and encouraged by the corrupt political leadership.

In the West we tend to make a clear distinction between our religions on one hand and our politics on the other. The Islamic world (meaning the masses of adherrents) doesn't make that distinction. Their leaders abuse this fact because it serves both ends of religious expansion and political power.

I am going to try and not write a book here, but the Paul Fregosi text Jihad in the West: Muslim Conquests from the 7th to the 21st Centuries outlines many of the reasons I am a bit hardcore on the issue of blaming not only Islam, but also Muslims. If you understand that no separation exists between the religion and the political aspect of Islam, and you take the statements of the Muslims at face value, it is hard to draw any other conclusion (in my mind) but the fault is a flaw in Islam.

Yes, this flaw is being greatly accelerated and exacerbated by corrupt political leadership and Western misunderstanding of the problem.

I would even propose that Western misunderstanding of Islam is the greatest problem we face in the conflict. Much like the United States never really understood Communism and created a 40 year "cold war" because of it, the United States government and citizens simply do not understand Islam. Nothing in Western culture, education, or religion prepares us to understand a religion where not only is the non-believer to be conquered through any means possible and converted, but in most cases the fellow believer is a target for violence for any number of percieved slight aberrations in dogma.

Believe me, if your Muslim neighbor is devoted to their religion, they are NOT your friend regardless of how friendly they may appear. (Many fringe Christian sects are adapting similar positions which is equally as scary on a smaller scale). There is no third way in Islam there is only submission or death. Democracy is a tool which will be used in the conquest of the non-Muslim world just as easily as Tyranny is being used now.

Muhammed was a megalomanic similar to all of histories famous "great men" megalomanics. Muhammed did them one better by realizing the power of the written word among illiterate people and exploiting this to remain in power 1400 years after his death. Being illiterate he understood the written word in a way we never will. "The people of The Book" is not just a catch phrase. It is no accident that Muslim is synonymous with "poor and ignorant". Islam is a hodge-podge of prehistoric superstitions and cultural de-evolution melded into the religious system and methodology of Judaism. Only Judaism was exclusive and Islam is inclusive. Muhammed if anything was a genius of cultural manipulation. He saw the flaw in the Jewish system, and used it to create a psychological disease that now infects over one billion people.

I say all that to simply end by saying, I have no solution. My philosophy is of a very libertarian bent, so I simply can't wrap my mind around the totalitarian force which will probably be necessary to stop this latest wave of barbarian horde. It will not be peaceful. Hell, it has already begun and we just don't realize it. Whatever the outcome the world as we know it will change forever. The halcyon days I fear are over.

And in case anyone wonders - I am dead serious in my beliefs. This isn't something I am working on for a rhetoric class. I believe what I write and I urge you to study Islam with an open mind - all of Islam - and draw your own conclusions.

for Theo van Gogh (1957-2006)


Rathpig

(I intend to keep hammering at this shit regardless if no one listens. Islam is the enemy.)

Graeme

Do you support the policy of bombing countries as a response to terrorism even when the individuals involved in the terrorist acts are not members of any country's fighting forces or government?

Graeme

So Rathpig - are you of the opinion that global, large-scale war (with deaths in the millions or tens of millions) is inevitable?

Spitfire

No. I support purging Europe of the terror cells which are already here.

Rathpig

Unfortunately, I believe it has already begun. I don't think it was the best solution, nor do I think it was the only solution. I think it is the solution that feeds the machine that makes the decisions on both sides.

Reena

The only solution is education for Muslims. Not so long ago Christians were not that much different from the Muslims today. Christians burned heretics, Christians censored thought, Christians went on holy wars etc.

But the Enlightenment, the spread of ideas, criticism, and democracy took a lot of power away from Christianity. Now Christians are for the most part normal people.

There is no reason why Muslims can't follow the same path. I think a very important thing is to somehow improve the quality of life in those countries. I don't think so many young men would be out burning embassies and protesting if they had good jobs and promising futures. I don't think they would be so fanatical if they had access to critical thought.

FieryBalrog

It will be difficult. You see, it is in the interest of Islamic leaders to prevent an Islamic reformation and Enlightenment. And look! Theres the sexually degenerate West, ripe for conquest, a convenient scapegoat. Reform is associated with us, with loss of virtue, with irreligion and immorality.

It will be very difficult.

PoodleLovinPessimist

Graeme, You're looking at things in a hierarchical manner, not in an ecological manner. The whole concept of looking for "root causes" is very limited and not very useful. Everything affects everything else; there are few neat hierarchies in nature, and most of the hierarchies we do find are merely descriptive.

Religion, specifically religious authorities, have always been an important social force. That they are moved by other forces doesn't change that religion is indeed a force. It's actually a good thing that religion is not a "root" cause: By definition, you can't change a root cause; if you can change something, the means by which you are changing it would be a root cause.

Since everything affects everything else, if we want to effect social change, we have to push. And we have to push somewhere specific. A religion, the underlying ideology, the religious authorities, and religious modes of thought (especially the epistemology of faith) are places to push. These are not, of course, the only places to push. But they're the places our membership is likely to want to push. And there's nothing wrong with that.

It would be a plus for at least a more liberal interpretation of Islam to gain wide currency. That's one of the places we like to push. That's why we challenge liberal Muslims to not simply dismiss conservative, authoritarian actions as irrelevant, but rather we challenge them to address authoritarianism and conservatism in the context of their own religion. We also don't buy superficial or lip-service liberalism; its often disingenuous, propagandistic, or sometimes entirely deceptive.

We have no problem with those who claim that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, equal rights, modernism, and rationality. That would be terrific, even if you still have to have some silly theistic beliefs in the mix. But don't tell us, we want the liberals go preach their liberalism to their fellow Muslims. Telling us that Islam is all these good things just sounds defensive. (The same stance applies, of course, to Christianity; don't tell us about all the nice things that Christianity is, go preach it to your fellow Christians. And Hindus, and Buddhists, whatever.)

Naturally, we'd like it even better if all these people would just embrace logic and reason 100% and become atheists. But one step at a time.

So one solution to the "problem of Islam" is to do exactly what we're doing: Hold the religious ideology and religious authorities to unflinching critical scrutinty, hold the line against bullshit defensive rationalizations, marginalize the extremists, and exhort the liberals to make their liberality mainstream. If we can shake a few entirely out of the fundamentally damaging religious mindset, that's just a bonus.