Jedi Mind Trick

Yes, this is indeed very interesting, and humorous… So much of modern Christian ethics is shaped by what they call “the world,” that is, us subjective secular humanistic moralists. A Christian from the 2nd century would feel alienated from his modern counterparts on a number of ethical issues.

southernhybrid

I'll ignore most of your previous responses to me since it's obvious that we will never agree on those points, and it would take far more time that I'm willing to take to show you where I disagree with some of your comments. It's interesting that we were both raised in evangelical homes and that we now have such very different ways of viewing what we were taught and experienced as children, isn't it?



I do have a view things to say about your above remark. It doesn't make any sense for one thing. Let me explain.

Here's a dilemma for the Xian. The Bible says "Thou shalt not kill." Most Xians would say that it's okay to kill in self defense and in times of war. Many Xians would say that capital punishment is an acceptable form of killing and are willing to give the state this power. Some Xians would say that voluntary euthanasia is an acceptable form of killing since it would relieve a person of their merciless suffering. A few Xians, ( hopefully only a few ) would say that it's okay to kill the Infidel, and even fewer Xians might claim that god has told them to kill their own children. All of these methods of killing should come under the command "thou shalt not kill". How does the Xian decide when to make exceptions? They do it exactly like every other person does. They use their own version of moral relativity to decide when it's okay to kill and when it's not, despite the fact that the Biblical commandment tells them simply not to kill.

Let's take something even less important than killing. How about lying? I'm a nurse. While I am usually extrememly open and honest with my pateints, there are times when I find that lying is more morally acceptable than telling the truth.

Yesterday one of my patients asked me if she had Alzheimer's Disease, after I explained to her that one of her meds was to help improve her memory. The truth is that my lovely 65 year old client does suffer from this dreadful disease, but I could see that it would cause her terrible stress and suffering if I told her the truth, so I told her what she needed to hear. I told her what would provide her with the most comfort. I had to make a quick decision to tell a little white lie because telling her the truth would be too painful for her. Your religion simply says it's wrong to lie. If you followed this command absolutely, you would have to tell this dear woman that she does have AD. To me, such an admission would be immoral as it would result in the needless suffering of an innocent person. While I would agree that it's best to be honest and avoid lying, I don't think this is always the case. How does the Xian decide when a lie is necessary, when his law simply says not to lie?


Despite your denial, both Xian and atheist are moral relativists. There is no absolute morality. The best we can do as humans is to try to do no harm, or the least amount of harm possible when we are given two choices. It's an impossible feat to do no harm since almost every action we take may harm someone indirectly, if not directly. We may be faced with choices such as having to kill someone who threatens our family, to telling a little white lie in order to comfort someone. Almost every action we take involves a moral dilemma, from using gasoline to shopping at Walmart. Gas driven cars pollute the environment but they also get us to work so we can support our families. There is evidence that Walmart may be guilty of unsavory labor practises but it also provides jobs, provides low priced goods and keeps some of us from having to drive far in our environmentally harmful cars to get much needed supplies. Every single day of life we face moral challenges, and most of them can't be managed by the limited and absolute moral commandments of the Bible.

I have no, absolutely no problem with those who choose to use a religious ideology as a rudimentary moral code for their lives, but I do expect them to be honest enough to admit that it takes far more than ancient moral codes to make the many difficult choices that those of us who try to live decent lives must make by depending on our own decision making process.

I will repeat once again that one of the problems that I see with the more conservative forms of Xianity is the concept of salvation through belief and by asking forgiveness. This has and can be too easily used as an excuse to do harm to others. One only has to ask forgiveness and all sins are washed away. Hogwash.

Okay. I'll end it here as it would be wrong for me to idle away the rest of my afternoon playing when I have work to do.

Haran

Atheists are good at using this "ignored" tactic, which is completely bogus.

The point about me growing up Christian and accepting Christianity because of that and someone in Baghdad growing up Muslim and accepting Islam is bogus. Plenty of people switch religions. There is nothing to hold anyone to one religion or any religion at all. You are assuming that I have not looked into other religions. I have. I have rejected them and lacking in the truth that I find in Christianity.

Haran

As I mentioned would happen, everyone is focusing on my beilefs as a Christian. Let's get to the heart of the matter. Your beliefs.

If you do not condemn my beliefs or morality, then I have little problem with you. If you condemn my beliefs and morality as a Christian, then I say you have not a leg to stand upon.

By the way, there have been several misrepresentations of my positions. Please re-read my posts before you continue to respond or else we will simply be rehashing simple things.

By the way, to the guy who acted as if I'm confused, please, please read a little closer. I stated that this thread was a reaction to another thread. The atheists were dog-piling on me, so that is how I named the thread. I also stated that if they do not condemn my views and try to convert my as some wish to do, then I will also speak calmly and rationally with them. No confusion there, just a comprehension problem on your part.

Jedi Mind Trick

Back up the truck… By what objective standard did you arrive at the existence of a god, let alone the Christian god? I would say that you have none. You reached this conclusion subjectively so your faith in the moral standards of this god is the product of subjectivity therefore your moral system is also subjective.

TomboyMom

Looks like we're not the only ones who are confused in this thread. Whose beliefs did you want to discuss, ours, or yours?

Johnny Skeptic

I stated some of my beliefs in my post #24, so where is your rebuttal? You typically spend more of your time making personal remarks than you do discussing issues. Do you really expect to influence the undecided crowd with such behavior?

TomboyMom

Well, I disagree with your beliefs. "Condemn" is a bit of a strong word. If you think I don't have a leg to stand on, first tell me what you believe, then convince me with rational argument and evidence that you are correct. As for your morality, I don't know if it's as a Christian or as a person, but so far I do condemn your manners, which I guess are a moral issue. I think calling other people unprovoked names is bad manners.

I didn't enjoy them the first time around. When I refer to something, I usually quote it, so I'm not misrepresenting anything.
Yes, I'm sure that taking offense at being called a borg-like militant dog-pile was all on my side, and had nothing to do with your word choice. I assume you apply the same standard to others? btw, how are you doing at turning the other cheek?

TomboyMom

Haran:
It appears that you have a problem with people who disagree with you. If so, why are you posting in a discussion forum, and why are you inviting people to pile on?

Writer@Large

Um ... you titled the thread "Atheist Dog-Pile" and stated in your opening post that "Here is a great spot for those borg-like atheist militants to gang up on poor little 'ol Haran and tell him what they really think. So, throw those 'ol opinions my way." Where, in all of that, does it say that this thread is about OUR beliefs? :huh:

I think you just get off on being confrontational and contrary. Do you ever follow through, or is it just the thrill of the immediate gainsaying that you go for?

--W@L