Freethought & Rationalism Archive

funinspace · 09-20-2004, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spanner365

"Oddly enough, man has accomplished more in the last 6,000 years than he did in the previous million years. This would be true in light of the fact that we have not one shred of evidence that man did anything in that previous one million years!

Not sure what to say beyond, simply stating this is patently false. Here are 2 books on Sumerian archeology:
The Sumerians: Their History, Culture, and Character, Samuel Kramer
The Early History of the Ancient Near East, 9000-2000 B.C. by Nissen, Hans
The second book will give you a detailed look deeper into history before the days of writing/kings lists. The progression is slow and clear over the previous millennia, showing improvements in tools, agriculture, irrigation, and growth of communities. Amazingly, the invention of writing, combined with irrigation, was a big breakthrough in city/cultural life. Duh!

Quote:

The developer of radiocarbon dating was astounded to learn that there are no records of mankind prior to 3000 B.C. (His teachers had not mentioned it in college.)

"The research in the development of the [radiocarbon] dating technique consisted of two stages—dating of samples from the historic and the prehistoric epochs, respectively. Arnold [a coworker] and I had our first shock when our advisors informed us that history extended back only for 5,000 years . . You read statements to the effect that such and such a society or archeological site is 20,000 years old. We learned rather abruptly that these numbers, these ancient ages, are not known accurately; in fact, the earliest historical date that has been established with any degree of certainty is about the time of the 1st Dynasty in Egypt."— *Willard Libby, Science, March 3, 1961, p. 624.

Prior to a certain point several thousand years ago, there was no trace of man having ever existed. After that point, civilization, writing, language, agriculture, domestication, and all the rest—suddenly exploded into intense activity!

Again patently false, nothing exploded. We have good evidence of lots of communities going back 6-9000 years, including Jericho. And we have real data about humans going back 20,000-30,000 years on most all continents.

Quote:

Dates going back to 3000 to 4000 B.C. are estimated as the longest possible dates. But "well-authenticated" dates from Egypt, which scientists consider to have been history's oldest civilization, only go back to 1600 B.C.

"Well authenticated dates are known only back as far as about 1600 B.C. in Egyptian history, according to John G. Read."—*Journal of Near Eastern Studies, (1970), Vol. 1, p. 29.

Again, patently false. We have excellent written records that go back into 2200-2500BCE from the Sumerians and Egyptians.

Quote:

The various radiodating techniques could be so inaccurate that mankind has only been on earth a few thousand years.

"Dates determined by radioactive decay may be off—not only by a few years, but by orders of magnitude.. Man, instead of having walked the earth for 3.6 million years, may have been around for only a few thousand."—*Robert Gannon, "How Old Is It?" Popular Science, November 1979, p. 81.

We have no records indicating human civilization going back beyond a few thousand years.

Quote:

The earliest king lists only go back to shortly before 3000 B.C.

"The Egyptian king lists go back to the First Dynasty of Egypt, a little before 3000 B.C. Before that, there were no written records anywhere. " —*Colin Renfrew, Before Civilization (1983), p. 25.

I realize what you are trying to get to, but even if radio active dating was off, it would be irrelevant. The fact is that carbon dating agrees with tree ring data and ice ring data going back 10 of thousands of years. We also have layered data from reefs going back almost 100,000 years. What this adds up to is that there has never been a world flood, as described in your bible in human history. So your appeals to a 6,000 year old humanity is irrelevant as well. Without wanting a inerrant xian bible, there is no reason in the world to suppose a 6,000 year old humanity. And besides there are so many holes in the notion of the early Yahweh grand miracles, that it makes Swiss cheese look whole. So is there a point here?

lpetrich · 09-20-2004, 12:41 PM

Gooch's Dad must have made a typo, because it is writing that was first invented in Sumeria (southeast Iraq) in 3000 BCE. And it is likely that our species has always had spoken language; as far as can be determined, every full-scale human society, as opposed to some society of deaf people, has had spoken language.

The OP arguments are, of course, the infamous creationist tactic of quote mining -- quoting out of context to give a misleading impression.

spanner365 · 09-20-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Civilization in Sumeria goes back another 6000 years or so, and the first large city in that area, Catal Huyuk, dates to roughly 7500 BCE

As for older evidence of civilization, the aborigines of Australia left artifacts that have been solidly dated to 40,000 years by carbon dating. That's in direct conflict with your claim that mankind has only been around for a few thousand years.

Can anyone tell me right off the bat how they date a civilization to be older than 5000 years without the help of carbon dating? There has to be a way.

Godless Wonder · 09-20-2004, 12:49 PM

Quote:

The fact is that carbon dating agrees with tree ring data and ice ring data going back 10 of thousands of years. We also have layered data from reefs going back almost 100,000 years.

If I'm not mistaken, Antarctic ice core data now goes back 420,000 years

funinspace · 09-20-2004, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spanner365

Can anyone tell me right off the bat how they date a civilization to be older than 5000 years without the help of carbon dating? There has to be a way.

Layers, one attop another; evolution of pottery styles is another example. This can be baselined against societies that have writing, and also against nearby cultures. You might want to try reading a good archeology book sometime when you aren't on a creationist website.

Gooch's dad · 09-20-2004, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

Gooch's Dad must have made a typo, because it is writing that was first invented in Sumeria (southeast Iraq) in 3000 BCE.

Whoops! Thanks, lpetrich, it was indeed a typo. Writing was what I intended to say. Thanks for catching that!

Sparrow · 09-20-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spanner365

Oddly enough, man has accomplished more in the last 6,000 years than he did in the previous million years. This would be true in light of the fact that we have not one shred of evidence that man did anything in that previous one million years!

"In the last six thousand years, man has advanced far more rapidly than he did in the million or more years of his prehistoric existence."— *Louise Eisman and *Charles Tanzer, Biology and Human Progress (1958), p. 509.

remainder snipped ....

oddly enough ...
The most recent reference you cite is from - 1984 Reader's Digest!

Man has accomplished more in the last thousand years than in the previous 5000!

The author of your primary quote had not witnessed manned space flight, the microwave oven, the invention of the transistor! The previous 60 years had revealed the first powered human flight, radio, television, nuclear weaponry, the theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics!

Welcome, spanner365, to the 21st century. Now what has all this got to do with a bronze age goat herder's myth?

spanner365 · 09-20-2004, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Layers, one attop another; evolution of pottery styles is another example. This can be baselined against societies that have writing, and also against nearby cultures. You might want to try reading a good archeology book sometime when you aren't on a creationist website.

Hmmm I'm surprised the moderators didn't help me out on this one. Thank you funinspace. Perhaps you missed the previous threads where I asked about the books. How do layers prove that a civilization is 7500 years old? Are there actual sites where a civilization is known to be a certain age and the layers demonstrate activity from several thousand years before?
Seriously, I really want to know. I'm not just trying to be a pain in the ass.
Are there any societies at all where it has been proven that they had no writing wharsoever? You seem to have implied it.

CX · 09-20-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

oddly enough ...
Welcome, spanner365, to the 21st century. Now what has all this got to do with a bronze age goat herder's myth?

Can any texts of the Hebrew Bible be reliably dated to the bronze age? I know many of them are about bronze age goatherders, but how many were written by bronze age goatherders?

MortalWombat · 09-20-2004, 01:25 PM

Let's not forget that the Chauvet Cave Paintings have been carbon dated to between 31 to 32 thousand years old.

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09-20-2004, 12:41 PM	#12
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Gooch's Dad must have made a typo, because it is writing that was first invented in Sumeria (southeast Iraq) in 3000 BCE. And it is likely that our species has always had spoken language; as far as can be determined, every full-scale human society, as opposed to some society of deaf people, has had spoken language. The OP arguments are, of course, the infamous creationist tactic of quote mining -- quoting out of context to give a misleading impression.

09-20-2004, 01:25 PM	#20
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	Let's not forget that the Chauvet Cave Paintings have been carbon dated to between 31 to 32 thousand years old.

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