Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-26-2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malintent

This is new? I was taught several years ago that the NT was created by Constantine to create a new religion that satisfied the pagan Romans and this new one-god (christian) religion. Example: Pagans had huge parties in december for Mithra's B'day... so make it Jesus's B'day and everyone still gets their party, etc, etc...

Even people who think that Constantine was a major force in shaping the Christian religion, by making it an established religion and combining elements of Mithraism and the religion of Sol Invictus, think that the New Testament documents predated his efforts.

I have very little Spanish, but I ran one of the pages through babelfish, and it appeared that Torrens thought that there was a peexisting story of a crucified Jew and a book of sayings, so it's not clear whether Eusebius is charged with being a wholesale forger or just an active editor.

Quote:

The plan worked of perfect way, in spite of a great failure that locked up. Failure that would be discovered 1,700 years later. However, to deceive all the Empire and all the western society during 17 centuries, is necessary to recognize that a profit is everything. We are in Rome. Year six of the reign of Constantino runs (year 312 of ours was). Constantino has started off for the border and has left reunited to Osio and to Eusebio. Both reunite the material of which they must start off. One is three small books that contain everything what it was left writing of the [crucified] Jewish Teacher almost three centuries ago. The writing in the first place was a collection of this of the Teacher, compiled by one of its disciples, Tomás. There was another collection of reflections, this one of a certain Felipe. They were not said of the Teacher, but conclusions at which Felipe had arrived with time. The third writing was more interesting, was a biographical writing. Written up by one of the disciples, Juan name, it gathered a sample of the lessons of that Jewish Teacher who died young.

Osio did not know any the books that Eusebio had in their particular library. Eusebio, on the contrary, knew them perfectly. And the three had a great value for him. He is he whom it had suggested to Constantine which they could be based on the Jewish Teacher, since Constantine was determined to make take part to the Jews in history. So that the plan happened to be based on such history and to construct over her the religion that wanted Constantino. But for it a drastic transformation was precise, because as much the original story of Juan like the other two collections of sayings was texts of Wisdom, the same Wisdom that the explained one by the Greek Teachers, the component that did not wish the Emperor in its new religion. In a text of Wisdom the way is described that the human must cross to obtain the permanent happiness, its accomplishment like being human plenary session. The Teachers defend who the objective of the Earth human being is to culminate its evolution and to reach the Fullness. And a text of Wisdom indicates the way to obtain it. All the Teachers affirm that such work is laborious and agree in the definition of the same one and its utility. One denominates Teachers to those who have reached this goal.

The equipment considered the best way to carry out the plan of the Emperor. And they decided that they would create more stories on the life and the doctrine of the Jewish Teacher. Altogether they would do four, sensibly similarities, although nonequal. They rejected books of sayings both, given its simplicity. It seemed better to create biographical writings. In addition, Eusebio was historian and to create histories occurred him well. In the first place they would use as the sayings of Tomás to create its own history of the Jewish Teacher. They used for it inoffensive sayings or, rather, fragments that did not contain Wisdom. They gave thus forms to a new biography of the Teacher, choosing everything what it heightened humility, of which the last ones will be first, which would be used against the Jews and in favor of the own Romans. This way a biographical writing composed Eusebio on the Jewish Teacher. This writing had a strange quality, to the eyes of Osio: He was isometric, that is to say, all their chapters had six phrases. Eusebio had composed the document bases of which the equipment would bequeath to the posterity like Gospel according to Marks. Rather, according to San Marcos, since the falsifying equipment of Christian sacred texts was going to invent the new concept of sanctity, honor that would be granted to those who helped to extend the deceit.

EssEff · 08-26-2005, 06:08 PM

I translated the introduction:

Quote:

Does the reader know that the author of the Gospels signed the forgery that was realized, in order to leave proof that the four gospels were his? We will see in this book dozens of variants of his signature, one a continuation of the other. There are thousands, in all the sacred christian texts.

Does the reader know that there had never existed any Peter, Paul, Matthew, Luke, Mark, nor Judas Iscariot or Maria Magdalena, nor almost anyone of the people who appear in the gospels or the New Testament? All the references to these people were composed and signed by the same person, the forger.

Does the reader know that there had never been persecutions against Christians, simply because Christianity was invented in the fourth century, by order of Constantine, and that neither were there martyrs who suffered?

From this account [does the reader believe?] that which is a manipulation made as God ordered?

the [ ] mark where I was unsure of the meaning.

Here's the original:
http://www.sofiaoriginals.com/simonc...apituloprimero

I think what I translated is brief enough not to violate copyright, but I think this guy probably won't mind anyway.

ETA: rats! I translated more of that but I deleted it. If someone here wants more I can give it a go. I'm not a native speaker but I can muddle through scholarly text fairly well.

Ben C Smith · 08-26-2005, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scifinerdgrl

From this account [does the reader believe?] that which is a manipulation made as God ordered?

the [ ] mark where I was unsure of the meaning.

Dar cuenta can mean to take notice. That line, then...:

¿Se da cuenta el lector de lo qué es una manipulación hecha como Dios manda?

...would come out as: Does the reader take notice of what is a manipulation made as God commands?

Ben.

Thomas II · 08-26-2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Dar cuenta can mean to take notice. That line, then...:

¿Se da cuenta el lector de lo qué es una manipulación hecha como Dios manda?

...would come out as: Does the reader take notice of what is a manipulation made as God commands?

Ben.

"hecha como Dios manda" =(free translation) done the way it ought to be done?

"Is the reader aware this is a perfectly executed manipulation?"

EssEff · 08-26-2005, 09:28 PM

ìMuchas gracias!

Thomas II · 08-26-2005, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scifinerdgrl

ìMuchas gracias!

Se da cuenta el lector de lo que es una traduccion hecha como Dios manda?

:notworthy

Anyway, you are very welcome! :wave:

spin · 08-27-2005, 12:05 AM

Whoopee-doooo. Another GUT that solves christianity!!! Julius Caesar, Josephus, Piso, Constantine. Perhaps they were really the same person. Then it would truly be a GUT.

snip

Vorkosigan · 08-28-2005, 09:11 AM

You never saw them together, did you?

Never mind the dated manuscripts.....It might be interesting to find the earliest citation of a Gospel OUTSIDE Christian writings, including gnostic ones. What's the earliest secular reference? Andrew, Peter, Roger....????

spin · 08-28-2005, 09:31 AM

Sorry about my GUT reaction. (And no I must admit, I never saw them together.)

ipsn

kiwimac · 08-28-2005, 03:35 PM

Ah, another Crock of Dung!

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08-26-2005, 09:28 PM	#15
EssEff Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 5,641	ìMuchas gracias!

08-27-2005, 12:05 AM	#17
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Whoopee-doooo. Another GUT that solves christianity!!! Julius Caesar, Josephus, Piso, Constantine. Perhaps they were really the same person. Then it would truly be a GUT. snip

08-28-2005, 09:11 AM	#18
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	You never saw them together, did you? Never mind the dated manuscripts.....It might be interesting to find the earliest citation of a Gospel OUTSIDE Christian writings, including gnostic ones. What's the earliest secular reference? Andrew, Peter, Roger....????

08-28-2005, 09:31 AM	#19
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Sorry about my GUT reaction. (And no I must admit, I never saw them together.) ipsn

08-28-2005, 03:35 PM	#20
kiwimac Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Mayfield, NZ Posts: 1,407	Ah, another Crock of Dung!

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