Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 11-12-2012, 07:03 PM

There is nothing about this explicitly in Luke 24 or Matthew 26 either. At least this was onedoctrinal feature they had in common. Mere repentance has nothing specifically more to do with the crucifixion than with the mere preaching and teaching of the Jesus figure to improve one's relationship to God.
In that respect the preacher teacher Jesus has nothing to do with salvic Christianity at all except to provide a backdrop.

aa5874 · 11-13-2012, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

There is nothing about this explicitly in Luke 24 or Matthew 26 either. At least this was onedoctrinal feature they had in common. Mere repentance has nothing specifically more to do with the crucifixion than with the mere preaching and teaching of the Jesus figure to improve one's relationship to God.
In that respect the preacher teacher Jesus has nothing to do with salvic Christianity at all except to provide a backdrop.

You don't really know what you are talking about. From the very start of gMatthew the author established that his Jesus shall SAVE the Jews from their SINS.

Matthew 1:21 KJV

Quote:

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

And, again, from gLuke, the author established that his Jesus was the SAVIOR.

Luke 2:11 KJV

Quote:

For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ..

ALL Canonised books and Epistles which claim Jesus was a Savior and was Sacrificied for Remission of Sins are AFTER the short gMark.

The earliest Jesus story of the short gMark had NOTHING whatsoever to do with Remission of Sins by the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

The short gMark is a Myth Fable claiming that the Jews delievered up the Son of God to be killed.

It is EXTREMELY important the we remember this passage. Eternal life had NOTHING to with the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus in short gMark.

Sinaiticus gMark 10

Quote:

....Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 But Jesus said to him ......... Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false testimony. Thou shalt not defraud, Honor thy father and thy mother.

In the short gMark-- Jesus said Follow the Commandments.

In gJohn--Jesus said he would be SACRIFICED.

John 3:16 KJV

Quote:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.

The Pauline writer claimed Jesus DIED for our Sins but NO such thing is in the earliest Canonised short gMark. The Pauline writings are AFTER the short gMark.

1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV

Quote:

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures...

Duvduv · 11-13-2012, 11:41 AM

Cool down, AA. I think we can be quite confident that these statements in GMatt and GLuke were added later and did not form the essence of the original story, just as the introductory material in GJohn about the Word was not part of the original storyline since we see that these ideas are never repeated or given any significance throughout the story.

We see nothing of the John Christ as "the incarnated Word with God" in the rest of the John story, and never see anything relating to Jesus being a "Savior" in Luke or Matthew. These were later additions once the gentile Christian savior had already become something different than the original Jewish messiah or even amorphous Son of Man.

aa5874 · 11-13-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Cool down, AA. I think we can be quite confident that these statements in GMatt and GLuke were added later and did not form the essence of the original story, just as the introductory material in GJohn about the Word was not part of the original storyline since we see that these ideas are never repeated or given any significance throughout the story...

Cool down??? Please present your sources that show gMatthew and gLuke were composed without Matthew 1.21 and Luke 2.11 respectively.

I have ZERO confidence in your claims because you have utterly failed to present the supporting evidence.

Tell me if you can what is written in your original Matthew 1.21 and Luke 2.11??

We can be quite confident that you have Nothing but your imagination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

....We see nothing of the John Christ as "the incarnated Word with God" in the rest of the John story, and never see anything relating to Jesus being a "Savior" in Luke or Matthew. These were later additions once the gentile Christian savior had already become something different than the original Jewish messiah or even amorphous Son of Man.

What??? You see nothing?? Can you see this??? Please, as usual, your claims are unsubstantiated.

Have a look at these passages. The Johanine Jesus was God.

John 8:19 KJV

Quote:

Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered , Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me , ye should have known my Father also

John 10:30 KJV

Quote:

I and my Father are one.

John 17

Quote:

...Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17.

Quote:

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

Duvduv · 11-13-2012, 05:01 PM

The notion of the incarnate Logos is not a theme we find repeated in GJohn.
And we don't find the theme of the Savior repeated in the Luke and Matthew stories after the brief mention.
Thus we can view these passages as later additions, suggesting that the four original gospels in the set were not all that hugely different from one another originally.
The salvic Christ theme really doesn't therefore have anything to do with the Messiah Teacher Preacher.

aa5874 · 11-13-2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The notion of the incarnate Logos is not a theme we find repeated in GJohn.

Your claim is absolutely and blatantly erroneous. I just exposed your errors.

John 10.30

Quote:

I and My Father are One.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

And we don't find the theme of the Savior repeated in the Luke and Matthew stories after the brief mention. Thus we can view these passages as later additions, suggesting that the four original gospels in the set were not all that hugely different from one another originally.

Again, your claim is hopelessly in error. You cannot show that there were four original Gospels. Why must there be four and not one, five or forty??

Now, in gMatthew and gLuke, Jesus claimed his blood was shed for Sins and commissioned the disciples to preach Remission of Sins in the name of the very Jesus Christ.

Matthew 26.28

Quote:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for the REMISSION of SINS.

Luke 24.46-47

Quote:

..Thus it is written...Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead on the third day and that repentance and REMISSION of SINS should be preached in HIS NAME among all nations.

At the Last Supper in the short gMark, Jesus did NOT claim his blood was shed for Remission of Sin and there is NO Commission that Remission of Sins be preached in the name of Jesus.

The Canonised short gMark is NOT about Remission of Sins but a story that the Jews delivered up the Son of God to be Killed.

The supposed Jewish disciples Abandoned and Betrayed the Son of God and the very Jews rejected him and cause him to be Killed.

But, he resurrected on the third day.

The Canonised short gMark is the earliest Jesus story in the Canon including the Pauline writings.

Aristides' Apology

Quote:

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. ...... But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven.

Dialogue with Trypho

Quote:

...Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One..

Hippolytus' Tretatise Against the Jews

Quote:

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? ........ it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor...

ALL the books of the NT Canon were composed AFTER the Fall of the Temple c 70 CE.

Duvduv · 11-13-2012, 05:32 PM

AA, in John we see a guy walking and talking, not a Logos.

aa5874 · 11-13-2012, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

AA, in John we see a guy walking and talking, not a Logos.

Can't you see where it states that the LOGOS WAS MADE FLESH.

John 1

Quote:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.......

.14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Can't you see that gJohn 1.14??? Jesus was God Incarnated--the Logos In the Flesh.

You can't see the Logos if it was NOT made Flesh.

John 10.30

Quote:

I and My Father are One.

Duvduv · 11-13-2012, 07:14 PM

He wasn't a Logos creature but just a preacher teacher. I don't see the Logos theme throughout John.

aa5874 · 11-13-2012, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

He wasn't a Logos creature but just a preacher teacher. I don't see the Logos theme throughout John.

Ok, tell us how to Identify a LOGOS Creature??

You must have some kind of "picture" or description of a Logos Creature.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-12-2012, 07:03 PM	#661
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	There is nothing about this explicitly in Luke 24 or Matthew 26 either. At least this was onedoctrinal feature they had in common. Mere repentance has nothing specifically more to do with the crucifixion than with the mere preaching and teaching of the Jesus figure to improve one's relationship to God. In that respect the preacher teacher Jesus has nothing to do with salvic Christianity at all except to provide a backdrop.

11-13-2012, 11:41 AM	#663
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Cool down, AA. I think we can be quite confident that these statements in GMatt and GLuke were added later and did not form the essence of the original story, just as the introductory material in GJohn about the Word was not part of the original storyline since we see that these ideas are never repeated or given any significance throughout the story. We see nothing of the John Christ as "the incarnated Word with God" in the rest of the John story, and never see anything relating to Jesus being a "Savior" in Luke or Matthew. These were later additions once the gentile Christian savior had already become something different than the original Jewish messiah or even amorphous Son of Man.

11-13-2012, 05:01 PM	#665
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	The notion of the incarnate Logos is not a theme we find repeated in GJohn. And we don't find the theme of the Savior repeated in the Luke and Matthew stories after the brief mention. Thus we can view these passages as later additions, suggesting that the four original gospels in the set were not all that hugely different from one another originally. The salvic Christ theme really doesn't therefore have anything to do with the Messiah Teacher Preacher.

11-13-2012, 05:32 PM	#667
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	AA, in John we see a guy walking and talking, not a Logos.

11-13-2012, 07:14 PM	#669
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	He wasn't a Logos creature but just a preacher teacher. I don't see the Logos theme throughout John.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.