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Old 04-07-2009, 07:27 AM   #91
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The rate of deposition would only matter if there were no seasons. The earth has always had a tilt of 23.5 degrees so there were always seasons. If there were no seasons then there would be no cyclical differences in deposits throughout the year.

Unless you add to your magic box of "the flood" that the earth only gained its tilt after the flood.

Maybe you can point me to the pertanent piece in the article because obviously I missed the point.
Varves only exist because there are differences in rainfall and other seasonal deposits due to the existence seasons. If there were no seasons, there would be no varves. It says this in the wikipedia article.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:26 AM   #92
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It makes sense that people from Babel took the tower design ideas to their new lands.
Where did the people of Babel get the idea? Who gave it to them?
Not sure.

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Old 04-07-2009, 08:27 AM   #93
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Maybe you can point me to the pertanent piece in the article because obviously I missed the point.
Varves only exist because there are differences in rainfall and other seasonal deposits due to the existence seasons. If there were no seasons, there would be no varves. It says this in the wikipedia article.

I never said seasons don't exist.
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:39 AM   #94
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Where did the people of Babel get the idea? Who gave it to them?
Not sure.

...and the Sphinx was an idea from this:

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Old 04-07-2009, 09:09 AM   #95
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Where did the people of Babel get the idea? Who gave it to them?
Not sure.

Waitwaitwait....You're saying that the people who built the tower of Babel were inspired by looking at mountains, but the most logical explanation for other pyramids elsewhere is that they copied off of the Tower of Babel and not, you know, mountains?

Or am I missing the significance of which mountain that is?

Oh, and I sent you a PM about the article that you couldn't access, BTW.
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Old 04-07-2009, 09:13 AM   #96
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This should help explain why there is no written record of a global flood in Egypt. It’s because Egypt wasn’t inhabited until after the flood and tower of Babel.
No, a global flood did not occur, as even some conservative Christian experts have said. In the thread that I recently started at http://www.freeratio.org//showthread.php?t=265598 at the Evolution/Creation Forum that is titled "Another fundie proponent of the global flood," you have conveniently refused to reply to a number of arguments that skeptics made.

Glenn Morton is a Christian, and a geophysicist. He does not believe that a global flood occurred. At http://home.entouch.net/dmd/hardgrounds.htm, you will find 49 detailed articles that he wrote against the global flood, and for the old age of the earth.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/micro.htm

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Originally Posted by Glenn Morton

In young-earth models of the global flood, they explain the fossil record as being due to hydrodynamic sorting and ecological zonation. Henry Morris [of the Institute for Creation Research] writes:

"The hydrodynamic sorting action of moving water is quite efficient, so that each stratum would tend to contain an assemblage of fossils of similar shapes and sizes." (Morris, 1967, p. 40)

If the prediction from the global flood is that small creatures should all be sorted out at the same time, the the fossil record does not satisfy that prediction.
Morton describes his position in much more detail than what I quoted.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

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Originally Posted by talkorigins.org

Does a global flood make the whole Bible less credible? Davis Young, an Evangelical and geologist, wrote [p. 163]:

"The maintenance of modern creationism and Flood geology not only is useless apologetically with unbelieving scientists, it is harmful. Although many who have no scientific training have been swayed by creationist arguments, the unbelieving scientist will reason that a Christianity that believes in such nonsense must be a religion not worthy of his interest.......Modern creationism in this sense is apologetically and evangelistically ineffective. It could even be a hindrance to the gospel.

"Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God's truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done......."

Another Christian scientist said, "Creationism is an incredible pain in the neck, neither honest nor useful, and the people who advocate it have no idea how much damage they are doing to the credibility of belief." (quoted in Easterbrook, 1997, p. 891)
You believe that the earth is young. Consider the following:

http://www.refcm.org/RICDiscussions/...babinski_4.htm

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Originally Posted by E.T. Babinski

After the Bible's geocentric passages were "reinterpreted" (or ignored, depending on your point of view) by Christians, next came the challenge of the age of the earth. Was the earth only a couple thousand years old (as measured by stringing together the "ages of the Patriarchs" as Bishop Ussher argued) or much older?

Many evangelical Christians today suppose that Bible believers have always been in favor of a "young-universe" and "creationism." However, as any student of the history of geology (and religion) knows, by the 1850s all competent evangelical Christian geologists agreed that the earth must be extremely old, and that geological investigations did not support that the Flood "in the days of Noah" literally "covered the whole earth." Rev. William Buckland (head of geology at Oxford), Rev. Adam Sedgwick (head of geology at Cambridge), Rev. Edward Hitchcock (who taught natural theology and geology at Amherst College, Massachusetts), John Pye Smith (head of Homerton Divinity College), Hugh Miller (self taught geologist, and editor of the Free Church of Scotland's newspaper), and Sir John William Dawson (geologist and paleontologist, a Presbyterian brought up in a fundamentalist atmosphere, who also became the only person ever to serve as president of three of the most prestigious geological organizations of Britain and America), all rejected the "Genesis Flood" as an explanation of the geologic record (or any part of that record), and argued that it must have taken a very long time to form the various geologic layers. Neither were their conclusions based on a subconscious desire to support "evolution," since none of the above evangelical Christians were evolutionists, and the earliest works of each of them were composed before Darwin's Origin of Species was published. The plain facts of geology led them to acknowledge the vast antiquity of the earth. And this was before the advent of radiometric dating.

By the very early 1900s, even conservative theologians at Princeton Theological Seminary were prepared in varying degrees to concede to science a long earth history, the transmutation of species by evolution, and even an evolutionary past for the human physical form. Such theologians included B. B. Warfield, the famous inerrantist Presbyterian, who at that time oversaw the publication of the Princeton Theological Review.

Even when the twelve-volume paperback series, The Fundamentals, was published between 1910 and 1915 (an interdenominational work that launched this century's "fundamentalist" movement), it contained cautiously pro-evolution stances of conservative Christian theologians like George Frederick Wright, James Orr, and R. A. Torrey. It was only in the eighth collection of Fundamentals papers that this cautious advocacy of evolution was matched by two decisively and aggressively anti-Darwin statements, one by someone who remained anonymous and another by the relatively unknown Henry Beach, both of whom lacked the theological and scientific standing of the senior evangelicals already mentioned.

So by the turn of the century a substantial number of evangelical Christian leaders in science and theology had little trouble reconciling their conservative theological views to the theory of evolution. In fact, the sort of pitched battle being waged by the "creationist" movement today has its roots not in the evangelical heritage of the 1800s but in the fundamentalism that emerged during the half decade or so before 1920, when fundamentalists shifted from moderation to militancy, opposing all "modernist" ideas.

For documentation of the information I have presented see David N. Livingstone, Darwin's Forgotten Defenders: The Encounter Between Evangelical Theology and Evolutionary Thought (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987). See also Ronald L. Numbers, The Creationists: The Evolution of Scientific Creationism (New York: Alfred A. Knopt, 1992), and, Davis A. Young, The Biblical Flood: A Case Study of the Church's Response to Extrabiblical Evidence (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1995).

What about evangelical Christianity and evolution today? The American Scientific Affiliation (a group of scientists who are also evangelical Christians), began admitting evolutionists into their organization sometime in the 1950s or 60s. The organization's journal, which contains articles by old-earth creationists and Christian evolutionists, is called, Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith. Some of the articles critique the arguments of "young-earth creationists." For further information on their journal, or on the scientific conferences they hold, write the American Scientific Affiliation, P.O. Box 668, Ipswich, MA 01938. Or phone, (508) 356-5656. Or email the editor, J. W. Hass, Jr. (of Gordon College, Mass.) and ask to receive a free issue of Perspectives. Email: haas@faith.gordonc.edu.

As of 1993 faculty members at Wheaton College no longer had to sign a doctrinal statement that affirmed that "humans descended from an historical Adam & Eve, not from previously existing forms of life." Wheaton College is Billy Graham's alma mater as well as being the holder of the world's largest collection of C. S. Lewis books, manuscripts and memorabilia. Lewis was a theistic evolutionist and an evangelical Christian.

In March 1995 the Christian Scholars Review published a special "theme issue" dealing with "Creation/Evolution," containing articles which "critically and creatively explore the implications of hominid macroevolution for the Christian or the compatibility of a modern evolutionary biology paradigm with a Christian world view." The Christian Scholars Review is written by evangelical scholars to help integrate Christian faith and learning. It is sponsored by 39 Christian institutions of higher learning, including Wheaton College, BIOLA University, and Calvin College. For subscription information write the Christian Scholar's Review, Circulation Dept., Hope College, Holland, MI 49423.

Dr. Conrad Hyers, the chair of religion at Gustavus Adolphus College, used to be a fundamentalist Christian and a creationist, but today he is a moderate evangelical and an evolutionist, and has written a scholarly, captivating, and entertaining book on the creation accounts in Genesis. He explains what scholars have to say about them, and what meanings they contain. And why such meanings do not rely on a literal reading of Genesis. His book is titled, The Meaning of Creation. He is also well known for having written a number of entertaining and scholarly books on the interrelationships between spirituality, humility, and comedy.

The evangelical Christian, Paul H. Seeley has composed some deeply researched and well argued articles, along with a book, that shows why evangelicals should resist the all too common temptation to interpret the Bible as a "revelation" of literal "scientific information. His book is titled, Inerrant Wisdom: Science & Inerrancy in Biblical Perspective (Portland: Evangelical Reform, 1989). I highly recommend all of Mr. Seeley's works to evangelical Christians who wish to understand what Scripture says about "scientific" matters, and why the Bible must not be confused with a "scientific" textbook. [For information on obtaining Mr. Seeley's book and finding out more about his articles, he may be contacted by writing Paul H. Seeley, Evangelical Reform, 1544 S.E. 34th Ave., Portland, OR 97214.]

Even that passionate defender of the inspiration of Scripture, B. B. Warfield [mentioned earlier in this article], admitted, "[An inspired writer could] share the ordinary opinions of his day in certain matters lying outside the scope of his teachings, as, for example, with reference to the form of the earth [it's flatness --ed.], or its relation to the sun [an unmoving earth and a moving sun-ed.]; and, it is not inconceivable that the form of his language when incidentally adverting to such matters, might occasionally play into the hands of such a presumption." Of course, if "inspired writers" could share "ordinary" pre-scientific opinions "of their day," then the Bible can not be relied upon as an authority in "scientific" matters.

Today's young-earth creationist movement along with its "Flood geology" notions originated in the 1950s and 60s, due in large part to the earlier writings of amateur geologist and Seventh-Day Adventist, George McCready Price, who was trying to "prove" that the Seventh-Day Adventist "prophet," Ellen White, was correct in her "inspired teaching" that the earth was only a few thousand years old and that one great Flood could explain the world's geological formations.

Dr. Henry Morris (not a geologist, but a devout Christian and hydraulics engineer), was very impressed by Price's works. In The Genesis Flood, Morris recast Price's ideas in a format accessible to evangelical Protestants, thus giving birth to today's young-earth creationist movement.

As explained in the paragraphs above, "Flood geology" had been seriously considered and rejected by devout Christian geologists before Darwin's book on evolution was published in 1859. So conservative Christians had little trouble agreeing that "the earth was very old" for over a hundred years prior to the appearance of Price's and Morris' writings. It is young-earth creationist groups, like Morris' Institute for Creation Research, and other "creation evangelism" programs that have increased discord and division among religious and secular society, and which divert attention away from the genuine problems we all share and should all be facing together at this point in human history. But, I'll leave discussion of that for another article.
As Babinski noted, "Today's young-earth creationist movement along with its 'Flood geology' notions originated in the 1950s and 60s, due in large part to the earlier writings of amateur geologist and Seventh-Day Adventist, George McCready Price, who was trying to 'prove' that the Seventh-Day Adventist 'prophet,' Ellen White, was correct in her 'inspired teaching' that the earth was only a few thousand years old and that one great Flood could explain the world's geological formations."

Consider the following Christian sources who believe that the earth is old:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by asa3.org

Dr. [Roger] Wiens has a PhD in Physics, with a minor in Geology. His PhD thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites, including surface exposure dating. He was employed at Caltech's Division of Geological & Planetary Sciences at the time of writing the first edition. He is presently employed in the Space & Atmospheric Sciences Group at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.

Dr. Wiens received a bachelor's degree in Physics from Wheaton College and a PhD from the University of Minnesota, doing research on meteorites and moon rocks. He spent two years at Scripps Institution of Oceanography (La Jolla, CA) where he studied isotopes of helium, neon, argon, and nitrogen in terrestrial rocks. He worked seven years in the Geological and Planetary Sciences Division at Caltech, where he continued the study of meteorites and worked for NASA on the feasibility of a space mission to return solar wind samples to Earth for study. Dr. Wiens wrote the first edition of this paper while in Pasadena. In 1997 he joined the Space and Atmospheric Sciences group at Los Alamos National Laboratory, where he has been in charge of building and flying the payload for the solar-wind mission, as well as developing new instruments for other space missions. He has published over twenty scientific research papers and has also published articles in Christian magazines. Dr. Wiens became a Christian at a young age, and has been a member of Mennonite Brethren, General Conference Baptist, and Conservative Congregational, and Vineyard denominations. He does not see a conflict between science in its ideal form (the study of God's handiwork) and the Bible, or between miracles on the one hand, and an old Earth on the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Wiens
Radiometric dating--the process of determining the age of rocks from the decay of their radioactive elements--has been in widespread use for over half a century. There are over forty such techniques, each using a different radioactive element or a different way of measuring them. It has become increasingly clear that these radiometric dating techniques agree with each other and as a whole, present a coherent picture in which the Earth was created a very long time ago. Further evidence comes from the complete agreement between radiometric dates and other dating methods such as counting tree rings or glacier ice core layers. Many Christians have been led to distrust radiometric dating and are completely unaware of the great number of laboratory measurements that have shown these methods to be consistent. Many are also unaware that Bible-believing Christians are among those actively involved in radiometric dating.

This paper describes in relatively simple terms how a number of the dating techniques work, how accurately the half-lives of the radioactive elements and the rock dates themselves are known, and how dates are checked with one another. In the process the paper refutes a number of misconceptions prevalent among Christians today. This paper is available on the web via the American Scientific Affiliation and related sites to promote greater understanding and wisdom on this issue, particularly within the Christian community.

[YEC's claim that] different dating techniques usually give conflicting results. This is not true at all. The fact that dating techniques most often agree with each other is why scientists tend to trust them in the first place. Nearly every college and university library in the country has periodicals such as Science, Nature, and specific geology journals that give the results of dating studies. The public is usually welcome to (and should!) browse in these libraries. So the results are not hidden; people can go look at the results for themselves. Over a thousand research papers are published a year on radiometric dating, essentially all in agreement. Besides the scientific periodicals that carry up-to-date research reports, specific suggestions are given below for further reading, both for textbooks, non-classroom books, and web resources.
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...rs/index.shtm

Quote:
Originally Posted by reasons.org

Notable Christians Open to an Old-universe, Old-earth Perspective

The following individuals—respected authors, Bible scholars, scientists, pastors, linguists, and more—hold to a diversity of views on the timing of God’s creation. And yet all have affirmed, in documented sources, that an ancient universe and Earth (including big bang cosmology) pose no threat to Christian orthodoxy, but rather may be considered plausible and valid interpretations, even literal interpretations, of the biblical text. Not one sees the question of age as a crucial doctrinal issue.

John Ankerberg
Gleason Archer
John Battle
Michael Behe
William Jennings Bryan
Walter Bradley
Jack Collins
Chuck Colson
Paul Copan
William Lane Craig
Norman Geisler
Robert Godfrey
Guillermo Gonzales Hank Hannegraff
Jack Hayford
Fred Heeren
Charles Hodge
Walter Kaiser
Greg Koukl
C. S. Lewis
Paul Little
Patricia Mondore
J. P. Moreland
Robert Newman
Greg Neyman
Mark Noll
Nancy Pearcey Perry Phillips
William Phillips
Mike Poole
Bernard Ramm
Jay Richards
Hugh Ross
Fritz Schaefer
Francis Schaeffer
C. I. Scofield
Chuck Smith Jr.
David Snoke
Lee Strobel
Ken Taylor
B. B. Warfield
As far as you are concerned, isn't the real issue inerrancy, not science?
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Old 04-07-2009, 09:30 AM   #97
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Varves only exist because there are differences in rainfall and other seasonal deposits due to the existence seasons. If there were no seasons, there would be no varves. It says this in the wikipedia article.

I never said seasons don't exist.
Well let's try some deduction

P1: Seasons exist
P2: Varves (like ice cores and tree rings) can only exist if seaons exist. E.G. differences in deposits due to rainy seasons and then dry seasons over the course of a year.
P3: Varves exist
P4 One varve layer means one entire year has passed due to changes in deposits over the seasons.
P5:The oldest ice core leads to 740,000 seasons
C: The earth is older than 6,000 years.
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Old 04-07-2009, 09:52 AM   #98
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Nevermind.
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Old 04-07-2009, 10:16 AM   #99
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Not sure.

Waitwaitwait....You're saying that the people who built the tower of Babel were inspired by looking at mountains, but the most logical explanation for other pyramids elsewhere is that they copied off of the Tower of Babel and not, you know, mountains?

Or am I missing the significance of which mountain that is?

Oh, and I sent you a PM about the article that you couldn't access, BTW.
I got the PM thanks. I'm still looking into that. I would say that's possibly a whole thread in itself. I need to give that some consideration.
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Old 04-07-2009, 10:17 AM   #100
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I never said seasons don't exist.
Well let's try some deduction

P1: Seasons exist
P2: Varves (like ice cores and tree rings) can only exist if seaons exist. E.G. differences in deposits due to rainy seasons and then dry seasons over the course of a year.
P3: Varves exist
P4 One varve layer means one entire year has passed due to changes in deposits over the seasons.
P5:The oldest ice core leads to 740,000 seasons
C: The earth is older than 6,000 years.

Then the answer I gave previously was valid. "My information is 300 to 360 laminae formed in 160 years in Lake Walensee, Switzerland. We can't always assume that the rate of deposition that we see today has been the same for the past."
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