Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Solo · 05-28-2010, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

So true i am sure as a god he could of made a mountian so big he would just keep falling for a year breaking bones and smashing himself repeatedly for the entire time. now that would be more painfull. He could of slowly microwaved himself for a month that would of been pretty painfull. and[B] thats just two right off the tip of my mortal head.

Not bad for a conehead !

Jiri

aa5874 · 05-28-2010, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Didn't God command the Jews to kill all the Canaanites?
Seems like the Jews have killed a lot of people even today.
Of course, there was that boy Jesus killed when he was younger......
But the commandment is clear "Thou shall not kill".
Not in self defense, war, or even stoning people, as they are told they can in many verses of the holy book.

There is no Covenant between God and the Jews that a man MUST be sacrificed through death for the remission of sins.

But astonishingly GOD will play "DEVIL'S advocate with Abraham.

In Genesis God TEMPTED Abraham to SIN by asking him to make his son a BURNT offering.

So, in effect, GOD KNEW it was EVIL or CONTRARY to GOD'S own LAWS for a man to be offered as a BURNT offering.

This is GOD in Genesis 22.1-2

Quote:

1And it came to pass after these things, that God did TEMPT Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

2And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Mori'ah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Now, just as Abraham was about to CARRY out the TEMPTATION of God an angel from GOD then INSTRUCTED Abraham not to kill his son and provided a Ram for the burnt offering. See Genesis 22.11-13.

So based on the author of Genesis GOD would NOT have allowed the SACRIFICE of a man as a BURNT OFFERING.

Jesus if he did exist could have ONLY been human therefore GOD would NOT have allowed him to be a HUMAN SACRIFICE.

In Genesis 22, GOD only required BELIEF and TRUST not HUMAN SACRIFICE.

The claim by authors of the NT and Church writers that Jesus was sacrificed was therefore UNGODLY, and CONTRARY to the LAWS of GOD as found in Genesis 22.

Now, if Jesus was the son of God then GOD TEMPTED himself and attempted to KILL his own offspring which is virtually IMPOSSIBLE. GODS are supposed to have ETERNAL LIFE.

How can GOD offer a sacrifice to himself unless GOD violated his own Laws?

IN EFFECT, Once JESUS was the son of God and was offered as a sacrifice to GOD by God then GOD SINNED.

Joan of Bark · 05-28-2010, 09:48 PM

Oh, c'mon aa. You should know that the commandment is ...

You shall not murder.

aa5874 · 05-28-2010, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Oh, c'mon aa. You should know that the commandment is ...

You shall not murder.

What?

So, if you kill someone to make a sacrifice to God isn't that a homicide?

andrewcriddle · 05-29-2010, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

aa,

Exodus 22:29-30

29 You shall not delay the offering from your harvest and your vintage The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.

30 You shall do the same with your oxen and with your sheep It shall be with its mother seven days; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.

Quote:

Your post is a most BLATANT HORRENDOUS mis-representation.

Exodus 22.29-30 has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with SACRIFICE through DEATH of the FIRST BORN.

On the eight day the FIRST BORN SONS were CIRCUMCISED.

Does this mean that they had to circumcise oxen and sheep?

See (for example) Exodus 34: 19-20

Quote:

To me belongs every first-born male that opens the womb among all your livestock, whether in the herd or in the flock.
The firstling of an ass you shall redeem with one of the flock; if you do not redeem it, you must break its neck. The first-born among your sons you shall redeem. No one shall appear before me empty-handed.

Andrew Criddle

Joan of Bark · 05-29-2010, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Oh, c'mon aa. You should know that the commandment is ...

You shall not murder.

What?

So, if you kill someone to make a sacrifice to God isn't that a homicide?

Try to keep up, aa. I was correcting your erroneous statement at the bottom of post 58.

aa5874 · 05-29-2010, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

What?

So, if you kill someone to make a sacrifice to God isn't that a homicide?

Try to keep up, aa. I was correcting your erroneous statement at the bottom of post 58.

What error?

The KJV of Exodus 20.13 does state "Thou shalt not kill"

Joan of Bark · 05-29-2010, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Try to keep up, aa. I was correcting your erroneous statement at the bottom of post 58.

What error?

The KJV of Exodus 20.13 does state "Thou shalt not kill"

Ah, so when the Hebrews killed the Canaanites, or an animal for food, or stepped on an ant, they were breaking one of YHWH's commandments?

... or are you just pulling my leg?

aa5874 · 05-29-2010, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

What error?

The KJV of Exodus 20.13 does state "Thou shalt not kill"

Ah, so when the Hebrews killed the Canaanites, or an animal for food, or stepped on an ant, they were breaking one of YHWH's commandments?

... or are you just pulling my leg?

Are you just pulling mine? You MUST READ the Bible for YOURSELF.

You seem not to understand that JEWS in antiquity were allowed to KILL certain animals for FOOD or for SACRIFICE, that JEWS were allowed to KILL their enemies under certain circumstances but were NOT allowed to KILL their first born males as a SACRIFICE.

Once you read the Bible, I read the KJV, it would be noted that in the JESUS STORY of gLuke that JESUS being the first born of the Virgin Mary TWO BIRDS were SACRIFICED for JESUS.

See Luke 2.22-24.

jgreen44 · 05-29-2010, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Your post is a most BLATANT HORRENDOUS mis-representation.

Quote:

...there are verses in Scripture in which the divine command to sacrifice the first born male appears to be unconditional. For example, Ex 13: 1-2 stipulates: “The Lord spoke further to Moses, saying, “Consecrate to Me every first-born; man and beast, the first issue of every womb among the Israelites is Mine.” Ex 22:28-29 reads, “You shall not put off the skimming of the first yield of your vats. You shall give Me the first-born among your sons. You shall do the same with your cattle and your flocks: seven days it shall remain with its mother; on the eighth day you shall give it to Me.” In neither verse do we find a mitigating qualification.

Moreover, there is also evidence in Scripture that child sacrifice was not only practiced in Israel, perhaps as late as 500 B.C.E., but that it may very well have been part of the official cultus rather than an alien, pagan intrusion. The most intriguing hint that such might indeed have been the case occurs in the words of the Prophet Ezekiel who depicts YHVH as mounting a crescendo of accusations against “Jerusalem” that culminates in the following condemnation:

You even took the sons and daughters that you bore to Me and sacrificed them to those [images] as food.—as if your harlotries were not enough, you slaughtered My children and presented them as offerings to them. (Ezek 16:20-21.)

Moreover, there is a very strange passage in Ezekiel in which the prophet apparently admits that the rituals he abhors were actually practiced by men and women who regarded them as an authentic expression of Yahvism: “I gave them laws that were not good and rules by which they could not live: When they set aside every first issue of the womb, I defiled them by their very gifts—that I might render them desolate, that they might know that I am the Lord. (Ez 20: 25-26)

Ed Noort, a Dutch scholar, has called this passage ““the most peculiar sentence on the role of torah (sic) in the Hebrew Bible,” noting that “It is YHVH himself who provides the laws leading to death instead of life. He allows Israel to taint itself by the sacrifice of the firstborn.”[4] Ezekiel’s depiction of YHVH giving Israel “laws leading to death” is consistent with Noort’s view that in contemporary scholarship, “The picture of the black-and-white oppositions between Baalism and Yahwism has disappeared.”

The Religion of Sacrifice and Abraham, Isaac and Jesus
by Richard L. Rubenstein (October 2009)

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05-28-2010, 09:48 PM	#63
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Oh, c'mon aa. You should know that the commandment is ... You shall not murder.

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