ddd3dturner

Yeah, I suspected that from your lack of strident dogma.

Thanks, and thanks for the effort. I'm just looking for silver bullets to save my daughter from being captured by the Christians. I think she can still respond to logic since she wasn't raised with the sin and guilt complexes, but her Christian "friends" are putting on the pressure, plus they have fun parties.

Is this the earliest dated Christian resurrection material?

I remember being taught that when you die, you sleep, then you are resurrected and come before some kind of ginormous flashy throne, where you are judged. If graded ok, then you go into the good pile and then do something--it was never clear what, just that it would be good. If bad then you are cast into a fire pit where you are burned up. I guess the burning necessitates a physical resurrection. Not sure when we were supposed to get the spirit bodies.

Guess he got switched over at some point, but since he didn't need to be judged as he was already sinless, why a physical resurrection? Just a formality, couldn't bend the rules or get around the paperwork, just once? It seems kind of tacked on. I read Earl's mythological Jesus stuff, a little hard to follow but seemed rational.


No idea.

Maybe Christians believe they'll always have a physical body, only it'll be bullet proof, everlasting, with non-vestigial wings and the ability to breath underwater.

That's a good one.

ddd3dturner

I'll check it out. Thanks.

ddd3dturner

That answers my original question. Thanks. What denomination do you represent?

Steven Carr

Paul - 'The first Adam became a loving soul, the last Adam became life-giving spirit'.

'Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.'

Orthodox_Freethinker

The Orthodox Church is not a 'denomination' but the ancient faith which Jesus and the Apostles founded.

Orthodox_Freethinker

In His resurrection, Jesus became a 'life-giving spirit' but this does not deny the restoration of His fleshly body.
Are you implying that as a 'living soul', Adam did not have a fleshly body?

Given that Paul was a Pharisee, there was no concept of resurrection to him but of the flesh. In this chapter, if he were to deny the physical resurrection, he would have made asserted that "flesh and bone" cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

What you need to avoid is the false dichotomy between the physical and the spiritual.
What did Jesus tell Thomas when he doubed His physical resurrection?

Steven Carr

Of course, he did. That is why Paul contrasted that with spirit.

Paul called his former Pharasaic beliefs 'garbage'.

And this weird distinction that flesh and blood means something entirely different to flesh and bone..... Talk about false dichotomies!

The idea that Paul thought we would abandon our biological bodies and enter spritual bodies is the only way to make sense of what he wrote in 1 Cor.15, as my modern day analogy made clear.

And Paul is very clear in 2 Corinthians 5 about where spiritual bodies come from.

Paul says in the same letter to the Corinthians God will destroy both stomach and food.

Clearly he was hardly teaching that Jesus ate food with an imperishable stomach.

Orthodox_Freethinker

Again, you are creating a false dichotomy.
If Jesus' "life-giving spirit" is contrasted with flesh, is Adam's "living soul" also contrasted with flesh? You can't have it both ways. If Jesus did not physically rise from the dead then Adam, according to Paul, did not physically live on earth.

As most Christian theologians would agree, the 'natural body' is the current sinful condition of the flesh while the 'spiritual body' is when the flesh is restored and made holy in the resurrection.

"Flesh and blood refers to human nature in its present weak and sinful condition."
The Orthodox Study Bible

"In 1 Corinthians 15:50, we read: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Does this mean that believers will not experience a physical resurrection? In Future Grace, John Piper responds to this question:

'Flesh and blood' simply mean 'human nature as we know it'--mortal, perishable, sin-stained, decaying. Something so fragile and temporary as the body we now have will not be the stuff of the eternal, durable, unshakable, indestructible kingdom of God. But that doesn't mean there won't be bodies. It means that our bodies will be greater. They will be our bodies, but they will be different and more wonderful." (Future Grace, 372).

In fact, if Paul had wanted to deny that the resurrection would be physical, he would have used the phrase "flesh and bone," which carried the meaning of physicality (cf. Luke 24:39). Instead, the phrase that Paul does use ("flesh and blood") carries with it no denial of physicality but is actually a Jewish idiom for our bodies in their present, sinful and corruptible state."
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/t...1cor15_50.html

"The earthly human stands under the power of sin and of death. No persons can distance themselves from this power, but all long for redemption (Romans 7:24; Romans 8:23). Redemption is not guaranteed by a bodiless soul which continues to live after death. Such redemption is guaranteed only by God, who continues to care for the body and soul of humans even after death (Matthew 10:28). Death is not the redeemer; God is. He makes the gift of eternal life (Romans 6:23) in that Jesus Christ became an earthly Human and offered Himself for us (John 1:14; Romans 7:4). Those who follow Him in faith and baptism experience the reality that the body does not have to remain a slave of sin (Romans 6:6,Romans 6:12). A person will not be redeemed from the body; rather the body will be redeemed through the resurrection of the dead (Romans 6:5; Romans 8:11). The existence of the resurrected is a bodily existence. The earthly body of lowliness will be renewed like the glorious body of the resurrected Jesus, becoming an unearthly body or building or house (1 Corinthians 15:35-49; 2 Corinthians 5:1-10; Philippians 3:21)."
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/print.cgi?number=T991


The contrast between the natural body and the spiritual body doesn't help your case either. The Greek word which translates as 'natural' in this case, "psyckikon", literally means "soulish".
Given that the human soul is spiritual, do I not presently have a fleshly body?

Steven Carr

No, Jesus is contrasted with Adam's body. Jesus became a spirit. That is what Paul said. Deal with it.

Jesus became life-giving spirit. God will destroy both stomach and food. I prefer Paul to most Christian theologians.

Paul has no conception of a human soul. According to him, humans are composed of body, spirit and life. Adam had a living body, not a spiritual body.

Living bodies die.

Paul says the natural body comes first, and then the spiritual. According to you, before the Fall, Adam had a spiritual body, with flesh uncorrupted by sin, and then had a natural body, corrupted by sin.

The complete opposite of what Paul said.

Steven Carr

Paul wrote 'The first Adam became a living soul (or being), the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'

Your claim is that a soulish body is spiritual, because a soul is spiritual?

And Jesus did not have a soul, because Paul contrasts Adam (a soulish body), with Jesus , who became a spirit, and not a living soul?

It is amazing the language you have to learn.

Resurrected people will have flesh and bones, but not flesh and blood, which is Jewish idiom that Paul used when writing to Greeks in Corinth.

Jesus became a life-giving spirit, but still had a flesh and bones body, but now which was holy, unlike his body before when he had been God Incarnate.

It is strange to claim that a body which was literally God Incarnate was not a spiritual body, but that is what you have to learn to say to be a Christian.

At least we know now that a spirit can have flesh and bones, even though Jesus said that a spirit can not have flesh and bones (Luke 24)