aChristian

No, you can establish the truth of the resurrection of Jesus from an unbiased view of the evidence. In the process of doing that, you will have had to show the historical reliability of the New Testament writers, which is also what the facts indicate. This leads to the establishment of the entire Bible based on Jesus' words and this includes the flood. I was just pointing out that the first reply was misreading the history when he said Noah had to gather the animals. The history is that God brought the animals to Noah and I added an interesting possibility of how he did it. That is why I said 'maybe' he used their migration instincts.

Gooch's dad

aChristian--there are a great many Christian biblical scholars who admit that the writers of the gospels aren't particularly reliable, so you'll have a tough time convincing us that the writers are recording accurate history. They demonstrably are not. The earliest gospel writer, Mark, isn't even an eyewitness, and the other gospel writers copy Mark to at least some extent. The writer of Matthew and the writer of Luke certainly do. And John is written far to late (mid-90's at the earliest) to be considered anything remotely like an eyewitness account of events from roughly 30 CE.

Some anonymous writers created a story about a guy rising from the dead. Big deal. That doesn't turn the flood story into reality--it is obviously myth, since the geological record shows us beyond a shadow of a doubt that no global flood occurred in recent geological history.

Sorry, you're going to lose this one, I guarantee it.

Agemegos

No. See Genesis 7:2-3.

Two (or maybe two pairs) of each kind that is unclean, and seven (or maybe seven pairs) of each kind that is clean.

Agemegos

Especially seeing that it was far from being an inconspicuous event.

There was darkness over all the Earth from the sixth hour to the ninth hour, and the Sun was darkened (Luke 23:44-45).

There was an earthquake (Matt 24:51), and the veil of the Temple was torn in half (Matt 24:51 , Mark 23:38, Luke 23:45).

Graves opened, and the righteous dead were resurrected (Matt 27:52), went into Jerusalem, and were seen by many people (Matt 27:53).

Funny that not even the author of John noticed these things.

Peter Watts

Then it doesn't matter how you approach it. I think you can take the kid gloves off and just hammer him about how wrong you believe his faith is. You will be doing him a favor, and it will be better for you personally if you are honest and direct instead of sneaky.

Agemegos

Reliable, are they? They don't even agree with one another.

# Genealogy of Jesus (Mt.1 vs Lk.3)

# How many generations from David to the Babylonian Captivity?

# Was Jeconiah the son or the grandson of Josiah?

# Did Jeconiah have any sons?

# Who was Zerubbabel's father?

# Who was Joseph's father?

# Was Joseph the father of Jesus?

# Did Jesus, Mary, and Joseph go to Egypt or Nazareth?

# Did the Centurion ask Jesus directly to help his servant?

# How many men (in the land of the Gadarenes, dwelling among the tombs) were possessed with devils?

# Was Jarius' daughter alive when Jesus was approached?

# Was Jesus the first to rise from the dead?

# Who were the apostles?

# Did Jesus tell his apostles to go barefoot and without a staff?

# When will the end of the world come?

# Did Jesus come to bring peace?

# Was John the Baptist Elijah?

# Did Jesus perform many signs and wonders?

# When did the transfiguration occur?

# Did Jesus forewarn the apostles of his death and resurrection?

# How many blind men were healed near Jericho?

# On what did Jesus ride into Jerusalem?

# When did Jesus curse the fig tree?

# When did the cursed fig tree die?

# Who was Zechariah's father?

# Did Jesus say he would always be with his disciples?

# Did Jesus say 'before the cock crow' or 'before the cock crow twice'?

# Did the cock crow before or after Peter's denial? 26:34

# How did Jesus respond when questioned by the high priest?

# To whom did Peter deny knowing Jesus?

# How did Judas die?

# Who bought the potter's field?

# Was Jesus silent during his trial before Pilate?

# What color was Jesus' robe?

# Who carried Jesus' cross?

# What did the soldiers give Jesus to drink?

# What did the sign over Jesus' head say?

# Did both thieves revile Jesus?

# What were the last words of Jesus?

# What did the Centurion call Jesus when he died?

# Where did the women watching the crucifixion stand?

# When did the women (or woman) arrive at the sepulchre?

# How many women went to the sepulchre?

# Whom did the women see at the tomb?

# Was the tomb open or closed?

# Were the men or angels inside or outside the tomb when first seen?

# Did the women immediately tell the disciples?

# To whom did Jesus make his first post-resurrection appearance?

# Did the Mary Magdalene recognize Jesus when he first appeared to her?

# Was it OK to touch the risen Jesus?

# Where did Jesus tell his disciples to go after his resurrection?

# Where did Jesus first appear after the resurrection?

# In whose name is baptism to be performed?

# How did God address Jesus at his baptism?

# What did Jesus do the day after his baptism?

# Which came first: the calling of Peter and Andrew or the imprisonment of John the Baptist?

# Did Jesus say, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up"?

# When was Jesus Crucified?

# When was the Holy Ghost given?

# Who were the apostles?

# Did the Samaritans receive Jesus?

# Did the Risen Jesus appear to ten, eleven or twelve disciples?

# Were the disciples frightened or gladdened when they saw Jesus?

# Did Jesus ascend from Bethany or Mount Olivet?

# Who raised Jesus from the dead?

# How many sons did God have?

# When did Satan enter Judas?

# Who sent the Holy Ghost?

# Did Peter ask Jesus where he was going?

# Did Luke include everything that Jesus did?

Since the Gospels do not agree with one another on these points, they can't all agree with reality on them. Therefore, at leas three of the Gospels are demonstrably unreliable.

jakejonesiv

Did God pack a lunch of eucalyptus leaves for the koalas to eat as they migrated from and to eastern Australia? Do koalas even have a migration instinct? :rolling: Maybe they hitched a ride in a kangaroo's pouch as they hopped 9000 miles.

What did the carnivores eat on the ark? Are you going to invent a "miracle" that they became vegetarians or were put into a god induced state of suspended animation?

The flood myth in Genesis has the flood waters covering the whole earth, including the tops of the mountains. Was that fresh water or salt water? And which ever it was, how did the freah water fish or salt water fish keep from dying?

Unless you constantly invoke the diety to perform tricks not even alleged in the Bible, the Noah's Ark tale is impossible.

Jake Jones

jakejonesiv

When Jesus is alleged to waft off into the sky (Acts 1:9-10), is that an example of the historical reliability of the New Testament writers?

Jake Jones

jakejonesiv

Were Chimpanzees on the ark? How do you know? Chimpanzees are never mentioned in the Bible at all. Maybe the flood god didn't need humans and apes, just seven pairs of the primate kind would do.

Agemegos

Wy did He need any animals at all? He could simply have created new ones after the Flood.

In fact, why go through the Flood rigmarole at all? He could have simply killed all the wicked people and their babies by a miracle. Or, for that matter, He could have made them good by a miracle, or sent them a saviour.