wildernesse

Agreed, there is emphasis on submitting to authorities and paying taxes. However, many liberal Christians do not do so--they may encourage civil disobedience to promote social justice. How important to liberal Christians is submission to governmental authorities? Especially in a government like the US, where the people theoretically have the power. Should Christians of any stripe lobby for what they think is right, when that is how our government operates?

Why should liberal Christians publically state that they disagree with other Christians? Why do you think it is a good idea for them, with regard to what you think liberal Christians believe?

wildernesse

On a side note: Who makes the decision about what is moral or not? Many people in our country find it perfectly moral and legal to curb the rights of others--convicted felons, for example, often have their right to bear arms or vote eliminated, not just curbed. Allowing everyone to have rights isn't a universal moral imperative.

Rhea

Bear in mind I'm not a scholar and I cheerfully accept correction on scriptural interpretation.


======================

Paraphrasing here:


Jesus said, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
- that is, do not enforce the Law unless you are sinless. So the preservation of marriage act can go.

Jesus said, "what you do to the least of my bothers, you do to me."
- that is when you insult a sinner (Christian homosexual) you insult Christ, so stop it. The "abomination" thing can be put to rest

Jesus said, "Nothing matters more than this: Love your neighbor as yourself and Love your God with All your heart"
- that is _all_neighbors_ even the abortion providers, even the liberals, even the gays. And think highly enough of God to care about whether his message is being accurately published.

Paul said, "Don't try to fix the heathens. Fix the other Christians. Fix each other. Make yourselves better Christians before you turn your gaze to non-believers.
- So don't be telling non-Christian whom they can and cannot marry.

Paul said, "if someone is not a Christian, don't make them violate their religion by your actions. Respect their resctrictions and don't taunt them. Just be sure to follow your own."
- So don't keep me from buying beer on Sunday, don't make me carry God on my money and don't make my kid pledge to God. And don't prevent me from gettin an abortion, either.

Jesus said, "be not as the pharisees praying on the street-corners, but pray privately to your god"
- So enough with the Football stadium thing and the steps of the capitol building.

Jesus said, "Just because they call me Lord and believe in me, doesn't mean they are doing my work"
- Those Pharisees aren't doing it right. You can save them by letting them know this!

Jesus saw people violating the temple and threw a fit.
- Don't let God get mixed up with Commerce

One of them said, "do not cast your pearls before swine" and "dust off your feet and leave when your message isb falling on deaf ears"
- meaning don't force it = Separation of Church and State. No ten commandments, no Presidential prayer, none of it. Dust your feet and don't let the swine tear apart the message.

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A liberal Christian very often clings to the scriptures above. (edited to add: And NOT things like abhor the homosexual, remember the non-believer is wicked, etc) Fundamentalists violate them repeatedly.

A liberal Christain wants Christ to be seen as love. Fundies spoil this message.


A liberal Christian wants everyone to see the Love. Fundies prevent this.


Jesus commanded the liberal Christians (Contrast to the Pharisees) to spread his word. Paul added that they should make sure to correct the corrupted word. Spreading Jesus' word should include making sure the RIGHT WORD is what's heard. How is it spreading his word to allow a corrupt version to be believed? Paul was right in this. Nothing can damage Christianity faster than Pharisees.


My 2�

Lanakila

Because the fundies consider them to be the enemy as well as the atheist/agnostic and unbeliever. (not all) But most fundies will and do turn against the liberals as quickly if not faster than they do the atheist or unbeliever. Look at the fiasco over the Episcopal church ordaining a Gay Bishop. The liberals either agree with the decision or at the very least think, he has every right to be a Bishop, but that it will hurt the church, but many will leave the Episcopal church, and keep silent on this issue, against the fundie onslaught. My pastor was railing against that very decision of the Episcopal church in my Baptist church (I hadn't deconverted yet) and I thought what is it to us Baptists, in this church, in VA? But I didn't voice that out of fear of going against the tide. Do you understand what I am saying?

I think I should have voiced that opinion. Baptists are strongly local church control, until its about something they disagree with like homosexuality. My pastor was out of line, and so were many fundies that think they speak for all Christians.

Postcard73

I don't want to derail this thread, so last week in this post from a thread entitled Fundamentalist Christianity, Lanakila gave what I think was a very good list of traits common to many fundamentalists. When I see a reference to a liberal xian, I perceive it to mean any person who believes in God and the Bible (an extremely broad group), but who would not fall within Lana's guidelines. I think that the beliefs of liberal xians are vastly more varied than those of fundamentalists, and they are thus very difficult to define. If further discussion is needed to define liberal christianity, then a new thread should probably be started to avoid derailing this one. If anybody wishes to do this, then please provide links between the two threads...

the_cave

Celsus' comment seems to have gone unanswered...

Postcard73

I have only discussed the topic of the OP one time with a liberal xian. It came up one day at work when I commented on some ridiculously stupid statement that Pat Robertson had made earlier in the week. She agreed that he probably shouldn't have said it, and I felt comfortable talking about religion with her; so I asked why liberal xians wouldn't stand up to people like Robertson. She told me it wasn't her place to judge Robertson as doing anything wrong and kept going back to John 8:7 (the passage Rhea referred to) and Matthew 7:3-5 (which is nearly identical to Luke 6:41-42) to defend her position...

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific passage that would suggest liberal xians have any Biblical obligation to oppose fundamentalists. I think the "Golden Rule" point was a good one, and I think LadyShea made a nice point that liberals should only stand up to fundies if a problem of biblical interpretation arises...

Biff the unclean

Non sequiturs usually do

Biff the unclean

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any specific passage that would suggest liberal xians have any Biblical obligation to oppose fundamentalists.
There are many injunctions against hypocrisy in the Bible. And this is really about hypocrisy.
Many times on these boards I've been taken to task with statements like "You can't say that about Christians. I'm a Christian and I would never do a thing like that." It reminds me of the good Nazis and the bad Nazis. The bad Nazis would drag Gays and Jews out of their homes and off to death camps. The good Nazis never hurt anybody. They just stood there and smiled, never saying a word, never lifting a finger. They would watch Jewish women and children being torn from their homes without even a comment so don't say they did anything bad.

Roman Catholics have sins of "commission," where you personally do something evil. But they also have sins of "omission", where you do not prevent evil that you had the opportunity to prevent. Apparently liberal Protestants do not.

the_cave

Well, but I think the OP is under the assumption that liberal Christians don't do any of the things that are being advocated. But if most atheists don't either, then what's the distinction? We should instead simply be talking about what kind of stand people in general should take against fundamentalism.