Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fatpie42 · 03-17-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

I'm not kidding [I'm Joseph]. There is not a single theological document which says the Creator is indefinable and unlike anything within creation [the universe], and singular ['ONE'].

Except the Vedas, the Qu'ran, the Adi Granth, etc.

As I understand it, the Vedas is not a later text than the Tanakh....

fatpie42 · 03-17-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Genesis does not say the age of the universe or the earth. It does say speech began with Adam and Eve some 6000 years ago.

No, it says humanity began with Adam and Eve. Speech is said to precede Adam and Eve when it is used by God during the first day of creation...

bacht · 03-17-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Genesis does not say the age of the universe or the earth. It does say speech began with Adam and Eve some 6000 years ago.

No, it says humanity began with Adam and Eve. Speech is said to precede Adam and Eve when it is used by God during the first day of creation...

Or if you prefer Old Kingdom Egypt we could talk about Thoth speaking things into existence...

IamJoseph · 03-17-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

You'd fail if this was a comprehension test to pass to the next level.

No. My interpretation is correct, unless the Hebrew god was given credit for bringing all of mankind out of slavery from Egypt (including the Egyptians)

That's exactly what happened. The quest for Liberty and inalienable human rights was established at this juncture. This is what the exodus represents - not some FX miracles.

IamJoseph · 03-17-2009, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

I'm not kidding [I'm Joseph]. There is not a single theological document which says the Creator is indefinable and unlike anything within creation [the universe], and singular ['ONE'].

Except the Vedas, the Qu'ran, the Adi Granth, etc.

As I understand it, the Vedas is not a later text than the Tanakh....

I'm not sure the Vedas predates the Hebrew bible, but I accept this is irrelevent here - the Vedas is an independently discovered truth of the Supreme One - and it rightly does not attach its belief on the hatred and negation of another. But I know two religions who have based all their beliefs subject only to this condition - and have no way out anymore.

Anat · 03-18-2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

What F'stein believes is irrelevent from what he agrees is the most difficult obstacle presented by speech and ToE adaptation. I have read his discouse on a discussion.

Since Finklestein is not a geneticist or a palaeontologist or an evolutionary biologist or even a linguist I don't see how his opinion on this question matters more than any random person's.

Quote:

Skeletal structures have no bearing on speech - almost all life forms possess this. Give me a 'name' which is 6001 years - then discuss 200K years of archeology. Recalling a name is easier than finding a 1000 burial sites and C14 datings of retrovirus - its also what speech endowed humans do most.

The ability to articulate complex sounds does depend on skeletal structure. See the interest in the finding that Neandertals had a hyoid bone. I don't see the relevance of 'recalling a name'. Recollection can only be done by living beings. In non-literate cultures information from before the time the tribe elders were born is seriously unreliable.

fatpie42 · 03-18-2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Except the Vedas, the Qu'ran, the Adi Granth, etc.

As I understand it, the Vedas is not a later text than the Tanakh....

I'm not sure the Vedas predates the Hebrew bible, but I accept this is irrelevent here - the Vedas is an independently discovered truth of the Supreme One - and it rightly does not attach its belief on the hatred and negation of another. But I know two religions who have based all their beliefs subject only to this condition - and have no way out anymore.

So you agree that the Tanakh is not the only theological document which insists that "the Creator is indefinable and unlike anything within creation [the universe], and singular ['ONE']"?

PhilosopherJay · 03-18-2009, 02:09 PM

[QUOTE=IamJoseph;5848630]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

The thousands of digs have not turned up the grave of David or any of the actual houses that he lived in, or buildings dedicated to him, or any poems that he wrote or anybody wrote about him, or the clothes that he wore or any objects that he owned.

Quote:

The issue with this find concerns whether david was a myth [as per many scholars' baseless conclusions on evdence even pre-dating this find] or a historical figure. Your assumptions are not credible, nor your alligning it with Goliat and a grave relating to a 3000 year figure, in a land which was in constant invasions and destructions. Please show us instead an equivalent affirmation of any other fgure from such an ancient period - you may use any part of the world you like.

A quick search of wikipedia reveals:

The tomb-Pyramids of the following rulers of Egypt have been found:
Djoser c. 2630 - 2612 BC Saqqara
Sneferu c. 2612 - 2589 BC Dashur
Sneferu c. 2612 - 2589 BC Dashur
Sneferu c. 2612 - 2589 BC Meidum
Khufu c. 2589 - 2566 BC Giza
Djedefre c. 2566 - 2558 BC Abu Rawash
Khafre c. 2558 - 2532 BC Giza
Menkaure c. 2532 - 2504 BC Giza
Sahure c. 2487 - 2477 BC Abu Sir
Neferirkare Kakai c. 2477 - 2467 BC Abu Sir
Nyuserre Ini c. 2416 - 2392 BC Abu Sir
Amenemhat I c. 1991 - 1962 BC Lisht
Senusret I c. 1971 - 1926 BC Lisht
Senusret II c. 1897 - 1878 BC el-Lahun
Amenemhat III c. 1860 - 1814 BC Hawara.

We have found tombs of court officials and ordinary workmen as well.

There is significant archaeological evidence for nearly every single Egyptian ruler from the 3rd Dynasty starting in 2650 to the time of David and the 21st dynasty 945 B.C.E.. This evidence includes monuments, statues, and numerous mentions on contemporary temple walls. These rulers include:

OLD KINGDOM
The age of the Pyramid. The pyramids of Giza and Dahshur are built during this period.

3rd Dynasty
Sanakhte (Nebka) 2650 - 2630
Netjerykhet (Djoser) 2630 - 2611
Sekhemkhet (Djoser Teti) 2611 - 2603
Khaba 2603 - 2599
Huni 2599 - 2575

4th Dynasty
Snefru 2575 - 2551
Khufu (Cheops) 2551 - 2528
Djedefre 2528 - 2520
Khafre (Chephren) 2520 - 2494
Menkaure (Mycerinus) 2490 - 2472
Shepseskaf 2472 - 2467

5th Dynasty
Userkaf 2465 - 2458
Sahure 2458 - 2446
Neferirkare Kakai 2477-2467
Shepseskare Ini 2426 - 2419
Neferefre 2419 - 2416
Niuserre Izi 2453 - 2422
Menkauhor 2422 - 2414
Djedkare Izezi 2388 - 2356
Unas 2375-2345

6th Dynasty
Teti 2345 - 2333
Pepy I (Meryre) 2332 - 2283
Merenre Nemtyemzaf 2283 2278
Pepy II (Neferkare) 2278 - 2184

FIRST INTERMEDIATE PERIOD

7th and 8th Dynasties
2150 - 2135
Netrikare
Menkare
Neferkare II
Neferkare III
Djedkare II
Neferkare IV
Merenhor
Menkamin I
Nikare
Neferkare V
Neferkahor
Neferkare VI
Neferkamin II
Ibi I
Neferkaure
Neferkauhor
Neferirkare II

Attested Kings about whom nothing more is known
Wadjkare
Sekhemkare
Iti
Imhotep
Isu
Iytenu

9th and 10th Dynasties
2135 - 1986
Neferkare
several kings named Kheti
Meri-Hathor (?)
Merikare

11th Dynasty
Inyotef I (Sehertawy) 2134 - 2117
Inyotef II (Wahankh) 2117-2069
Inyotef III (Nakhtnebtepnefer) 2069 - 2060

MIDDLE KINGDOM

11th Dynasty
Mentuhotep II 2055 -2004
Mentuhotep III (Sankhkare) 2004 - 1992
Mentuhotep IV (Nebtawyre) 1992 - 1987

12th Dynasty
Amenemhet I (Sehetepibre) 1991 - 1962
Senusret I (Kheperkare) 1956 - 1911
Amenemhet II (Nubkaure) 1911 - 1877
Senusret II (Khakheperre) 1877 - 1870
Senusret III (Khakaure) 1836 - 1817
Amenemhet III (Nimaatre) 1817 - 1772
Amenemhet IV (Maakherure) 1772 - 1763
Neferusobek (Sobekkare) 1763 - 1759

SECOND INTERMEDIATE PERIOD

13th Dynasty
Wegaf 1783-1779
Amenemhat-senebef
Sekhemre-khutawi
Amenemhat V
Sehetepibre I
Iufni
Amenemhat VI
Semenkare
Sehetepibre II
Sewadjkare
Nedjemibre
Sobekhotep I
Reniseneb
Hor I
Amenemhat VII
Sobekhotep II
Khendjer
Imira-mesha
Antef IV
Seth
Sobekhotep III
Neferhotep I 1696 - 1686
Sihathor 1685 - 1685
Sobekhotep IV 1685 - 1678
Sobekhotep V 1678 - 1674
Iaib 1674 - 1664
Ay 1664 - 1641
Ini I
Sewadjtu
Ined
Hori
Sobekhotep VI
Dedumes I
Ibi II
Hor II
Senebmiu
Sekhanre I
Merkheperre
Merikare

14th Dynasty
Nehesi
Khatire
Nebfaure
Sehabre
Meridjefare
Sewadjkare
Heribre
Sankhibre
Kanefertemre
Neferibre
Ankhkare, ...

15th Dynasty
Salitis
Bnon
Apachnan (Khian)
Apophis (Auserre Apepi)
Khamudi

16th Dynasty
Anat-Her
User-anat
Semqen
Zaket
Wasa
Qar
Pepi III
Bebankh
Nebmaatre
Nikare II
Aahotepre
Aaneterire
Nubankhre
Nubuserre
Khauserre
Khamure
Jacob-Baal
Yakbam
Yoam
Amu, ...

17th Dynasty
Antef V
Rahotep
Sobekemzaf I
Djehuti
Mentuhotep VII
Nebirau I
Nebirau II
Semenenre
Suserenre
Sobekemzaf II
Antef VI
Antef VII
Tao I (Senakhtenre)
Tao II (Sekenenre)
Kamose (Wadjkheperre)

NEW KINGDOM
18th Dynasty
Ahmose (Nebpehtyre) 1539 - 1514
Amenhotep I (Djeserkare) 1514 - 1493
Thutmose I (Akheperkare) 1493 - 1481
Thutmose II (Akheperenre) 1491 - 1479
Hatshepsut (Maatkare) 1473 - 1458
Thutmose III (Menkheperre) 1504 - 1450
Amenhotep II (Akheperure) 1427 - 1392
Thutmose IV (Menkheperure) 1419 - 1386
Amenhotep III (Nebmaatre) 1382 - 1344
Amenhotep IV / Akhenaten 1350 - 1334
Smenkhkare (Ankhkheperure) 1336-1334
Tutankhamun (Nebkheperure) 1334 - 1325
Ay (Kheperkheperure) 1325 - 1321
Horemheb (Djeserkheperure) 1323 - 1295

19th Dynasty
Ramesses I (Menpehtyre) 1295 - 1294
Seti I (Menmaatre) 1394 - 1279
Ramesses II (Usermaatresetepenre) 1279 - 1213
Merenptah (Baenrehotephirmaat) 1213 - 1203
Amenmesse (Menmire) 1203 - 1200
Seti II (Userkheperuresetepenre) 1200 - 1194
Siptah (Akhenresetepenre) 1194 - 1188
Tausert (Sitremeritamun) 1185-1187

20th Dynasty
Setakht (Userkhauremeryamun) 1186 - 1184
Ramesses III (Usermaatremeryamun) 1184 - 1153
Ramesses IV (Hekamaatresetepenamun) 1153 - 1147
Ramesses V (Usermaatresekheperenre) 1147 - 1143
Ramesses VI (Nebmaatremeryamun) 1143 - 1136
Ramesses VII (Usermaatresetepenre) 1136 - 1129
Ramesses VIII (Usermaatreakhenamun) 1129 - 1126
Ramesses IX (Neferkaresetepenre) 1126 - 1108
Ramesses X (Khepermaatresetepenre) 1108 - 1099
Ramesses XI (Menmaatresetepenptah) 1099 - 1069

THIRD INTERMEDIATE PERIOD

21st Dynasty
Northern Kings Southern Rulers at Thebes
Smedes 1070-1044 Herihor 1080-1074
Amenemnisu 1040 Piankh 1074-1070
Psusennes I 1040-992 Pinedjem I 1070-1032
Amenope 993-984 Masaherta 1054-1046
Osochor 984-978 Menkheperre 1045-992
Siamun 978-959 Smendes II 992-990
Psusennes II 959-945 Pinedjem II 990-969
Psusennes III 969-945

We apparently have far more archaeological evidence for over 100 Egyptian rulers who ruled before the alleged time of David, than we do for David.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

The thousands of digs have not turned up the grave of David or any of the actual houses that he lived in, or buildings dedicated to him, or any poems that he wrote or anybody wrote about him, or the clothes that he wore or any objects that he owned.

The issue with this find concerns whether david was a myth [as per many scholars' baseless conclusions on evdence even pre-dating this find] or a historical figure. Your assumptions are not credible, nor your alligning it with Goliat and a grave relating to a 3000 year figure, in a land which was in constant invasions and destructions. Please show us instead an equivalent affirmation of any other fgure from such an ancient period - you may use any part of the world you like.

The limiting this find to three letters is also not credible; in fact the find shows inter-connective details with historical events, and this would not even require those figures or the reference to David. However, we have also other evidences which allign with David and Solomon in hard copy coins and other artifacts. David is also evidenced by a long thread of writings, none of which have ever been disputed as dis-historical.

Cyclical inclinations imposed on history lead nowhere. My view is there is far more proof for 3000 year David than more recent figures like Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed; and equally, there is far more evidence David wrote the psalms than those figures can be connected to what is ascribed to them as their own writings. There is more evidence of the trial conducted on David by the Prophet Nathan, than the trial mentioned in the Gospels concerning Jesus; there is more evidence that the Prophet Samuel annointed David as King than the followers of Mohammed appointing him a Prophet; there is more evidence of the entire real life family members of David, as well as his biological lineage, than we have for Buddha, Jesus or Mohammed.

The truth is we are within a realm which says David and Moses were Muslim [intelligently embellished as 'belief', but which transcends all historicity]; and there are two gaping discrepencies in the Gospel claims of Jesus lineage with this same figure. IOW, European Christianity and Islam have a jewish problem - and this filters down to their scholars and a host of media and enclyclopedia - these are being exposed continuously. We saw the debacle with the scrolls - had it not been retrieved into Israeli hands, we'd probably not have any access to these writings today - or they would have been destroyed and paste and copy editions only made available; this is also what has occured with the Flavius Josephus writings. And there are vital reasons to keep it that way.

I invite your preamble at the top if you are saying David was a myth or not first - then second this why this find is not conclusive in that regard.

spamandham · 03-18-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

No. My interpretation is correct, unless the Hebrew god was given credit for bringing all of mankind out of slavery from Egypt (including the Egyptians)

That's exactly what happened. The quest for Liberty and inalienable human rights was established at this juncture. This is what the exodus represents - not some FX miracles.

An interesting interpretation. If the exodus is really a metaphor, are you agreeing that it is not historical?

Ohene · 03-19-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Certainly there is ubsurdity here, which most accept without noticing the anomolies. Egypt, a close kin and ruler of Canaanites well before the Hebrews emerged - did not speak Hebrew, which you claim came from the Canaanites! Its like saying the english language came from Madagaskar or Hawaii 1000s of years ago - even if this language was never spoken there till recently.

Kin? Wait so now your claiming Ancient Egyptians were SEMITES?? Wow. My friend, Egyptians may have been many things to canannites, but 'kin' wasn't one. In fact its more likely they share more of a genetic, linguistic and cultural heritage with the NUBIANS directly to thier south--ON THE SAME LAND MASS, and from whence they(egyptians) say they originally came.

Secondly, why are you obssesed with the fact that Egyptians did not speak Hebrew? Thier language and culture was developed a millenia before they ever heard of the nomadic tribes you call Hebrews. And if you believed they enslaved them for 400 years then its no surpised that Hebrews learned Egyptian! Did the spanish conquistadors learn the languages of south america? Did the american colonist learn the languages of the slaves they brought from Africa? NO. The conquered always learns the language of the conquerer...not the reverse. Good grief...

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