RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From Larsguy47:
You are not a reporter. You are a person who believes they are the Messiah. Not the same thing. And reporters only refuse to divulge their sources when those sources require the protection of anonymity. Your alleged source is an old book.

Produce it please.

From Larsguy47:
You don't control the nature of discussion around here. And your delusional style of debate is very much on topic. It isn't possible to discuss or debate with someone who harbors serious delusions.

RED DAVE

Larsguy47

You know, I think you've convinced me! I do believe with that gold being so heavy they likely dropped lots of it all over. Can't figure out why all that gold lying around isn't there. I don't think anyone has been in that area since the Israelites left, it still should have been there.

And oh yeah, you forgot to quote the scripture about how their clothes never worse out or their shoes. So not likely they would be leaving any clothes behind.

And oh yeah, in one of the Amarna letters turns out one king was promised to golden statues that apparently had been made up already by Amenhotep III, but Akhenaten sent gold plated ones over wood instead and the king was upset. Maybe they gave that gold to the Egyptians and they Egyptians were now short on gold.

Corpses in unprotected areas (i.e. like air-tight tombs) disintegrade, even the bones. We all know this. Especially archaeologists. Bones and dead bodies don't survive when they are not put in a tomb of some sort.

Nope, not supposed to be. Lots of people ALL over have died since then and we don't find bones. Where are all the bones of the Babylonians?

They found Amenhotep III's body, likely by the clothing and embalmed him but had to use a special process. So he survived, but it's the least well preserved body of all the mumies recovered so far. Cause of death: Unknown.

Where are all the bones of Egyptians from centuries past of the common people? Hugh? They've found some bones when they are inside pyramids, but that's a protected environment. Otherwise, they disintegrade into nothing over time. Do you think the bones of millions of people in all those ancient cultures are piled up some place?


Again, animals left to the elements decay and deteriorate and are eaten up completely by bacteria and go back to the dust. Why do you think fossils are so imporant? Because organic materials not preserved in some special way completely disappears.

They were speaking of beyond the wilderness. No cities were built in the wilderness. As I said in the opening, there seems to be very little evidence between the Exodus until Shishak appeared and then there's lots, from Shishak's inscriptions, to the Tel Dan stele, the Moabite stone (Mesha stele) and all the records of the Assyrians and then Babylonians and some from the Persian Period. But this is like a blank page, not just for the Jews but for others in this region where we have some historican confirmation. If it were not for the Amarna Letters, in fact, it is likely archaeologists would be left presuming all kinds of things. Thanks to those letters we can confirm with a clearer picture what that civilization and world was like just before the Jews entered and started conquering the land.

So I hear you about our general presumptions about what SHOULD have been found. But is that really an informed expectation? Why is this period so archaeologically challenged? If we presume no evidence means no existence, then we're stuck with a great nation suddenly appearing out of nowhere at the time of Shishak, with a made up history? I tend to doubt it. I think there's some explanation why the archaeological findings are so sparse for this entire period, not that great building was done by the Israelites before David and Solomon. They were so inexperienced they had to rely on Tyre to help them with the building! When people don't build things out of stone, they don't leave much behind.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

LG47

Larsguy47

Do you have a link to just what the general condition of that region was?

Further, if the archaeologists find something and remove it, then, um, and someone else comes 100 years later looking for evidence and don't happen to break into the British museum to see what was found now in their secret vault, then would they presume the people were never there?

Remember, this is an unusual situation. They ate manna and their clothes didn't wear out. So less than the "usual" would be expected to remain in the way of artifacts. Still, maybe they are not digging deep enough or the layers on which the Jews treked 3000 years ago may have been completely displaced by now. Shallow sands blown away by strong winds and new sand replacing it.

HOW OLD IS THE SAND THERE NOW?

Things do erode over time.

So I hear you about what should have been left around all these years for archaeologists to find, but I'm wondering if we are truly understanding the whole picture. Why have complete cities disappeared with no trace? Cities mentioned in the Bible and in Egyptian records? Maybe it is not completely appreciated how archaeologically challenged this region and this time period is.

Thanks for sharing your comments.

LG47

Larsguy47

What about other nomadic peoples living in the desert, like Arabs. Are thousands of graves from 3000 years ago found all the time in the regions they come from?

LG47

spin

There's an early 20c. book called the Wilderness of Zin in which the writers actually walk through the zone. There are a number of archaeological surveys of the area to be found, for example there are small amounts in Amihai Mazar's general Archaeology of Israel.

When Watzinger and Sellin worked at Jericho for example at the beginning of the 20th c. they wrote reports. When Garstang worked there thirty years later, he wrote reports. When Kenyon worked there in the 50s she wrote reports. And when Nigro and Marchetti worked there for a few seasons they left copious reports. There is a century of archaeology at Jericho and you can know what happened and what was found. This is the job of the archaeologist. Your job is to go and read it.

What strong winds??

Older than you.

A drowning man clutches at anything he thinks will keep him afloat.

Why not read an archaeological report about Beersheba to get an idea.

Why can't they find Shangri La, El Dorado, or Brigadoon?

It would help if you stopped pissing around and read something useful to get an idea of the area we are dealing with. There have been archaeological surveys of the area. Forts have been found. Villages. Waystations. Shrines. Camp sites. It's not a matter of them not having found the towns of the exodus yet. They've looked... and looked hard. Biblical archaeology wanted to find such evidence, so they looked under every rock and dug at every promising point.

This is a matter of no evidence for its existence means that it didn't exist.


spin

RED DAVE

From Larsguy47:
Your ignorance of archaelogy is matched by your ignorance of historical research.

Miracles are not considered as part of the historical process.

Self-styled Messiahs are not considered credible writers.

RED DAVE

RED DAVE

Archaeology of the Land of the Bible: 10,000-586 B.C.E. (or via: amazon.co.uk)
Amihai Mazar

From The Publisher:

The standard text on biblical archaeology--an award-winning, comprehensive introduction to the subject, from the very beginnings to the divided monarchy and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.


Table of Contents


Larsguy47, why don't you read this book, or one like it, before you spout off anymore of your nonsense about what is and is not preserved in the desert. You show no evidence of having done any serious research on the matter.

When you’ve absorbed its contents, let us know.

RED DAVE

Cheerful Charlie

Deuteronomy states that the Israelites spent 38 years at Kadeshbarnea.
Even if you take the 2.4 million Israelites (Number) and divide it by 20
you get 120,000, still bigger than most large cities of that time. Even 12,000 people at one site 4 decades will leave traces. Ash pits, middens, graves, broken pottery. This has been searched for and was not found.
Twice. Its a tall tale.

CC

Avatar

We're done here. Or at least I am.

3DJay

Ancient graves are found with jewelry all the freakin time.

What are you suggesting, that their clothes were all worn out and they were all naked, by the time they hit Canaan? What the hell were the livestock for?

What the...?

And, archaeologists also know that deserts provide the better chance for fossilization, than many other enviroments.

And, they know that other ancient nomadic cultures...including basically everything pre-10000 BCE that have left traces.

And, they know that other nomads, in that area, like the Bedouins, have left traces.

The Archaeology of Mobility: Nomads in the Old and in the New World

Archaeology of the Neolithic Levant and Nomadic Pastoralism

archaeological evidence of nomads

Russian Tombs Hold Clues to Obscure Life of Asian Huns

English Language Resources on the Xiongnu

Scythians: History and archaeology

Scythian nomadism

Biomorph indicators of human-induced transformation of soils under early nomad burial mounds in southern Russia

What nomads, besides the Israelites, do you think there's zero archaeological evidence for?

Not supposed to be? It's not Jewish custom, to have a ceremonial burial? And, who's asking for "all"? Where's some...where's one? You do know that some Babylonian graves have been found, right? And, also crematoriums?

So? They can't verify the cause of death, for most mummies.

EGYPTIAN TOMBS
Are you serious? They've found so many damn mummies in Egypt that they were used for firewood, because they were more plentyfull than wood, and even ground them up in medicines.

I said "account". Zero. Nobody thought it at all strange that all there livestock died, then was apparently walking dead, to get pelted with hail and get boils, then all the firstborn of the walking dead livestock died again.


My bad, I hit "c" instead of "s"...My "cites" was meant to be "sites", not "cities".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho#Walls_of_Jericho
The Apiru and Hyksos, might give you the answers you're looking for.

They do leave something behind, however.


Peace