Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 12-27-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by offa
What Thiering did for me was unitentionally open my mind. For instance, I know that "soldiers" means "leader of the soldiers" so when I read Josephus I understand that the 800 men crucified by Alexander Janneus was probably just one person and that person would be the leader of 800.

Why do you think all of this?

spin

offa · 12-27-2003, 01:46 PM

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by offa
What Thiering did for me was unintentionally open my mind. For
instance, I know that "soldiers" means "leader of the soldiers" so
when I read Josephus I understand that the 800 men crucified by
Alexander Janneus was probably just one person and that person would
be the leader of 800.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you think all of this?

spin

I treat Josephus as a teacher. When I read him I realize that he is
telling me something that is not obvious. When I first read Josephus
I did not realize this.

Let me give you a for instance.

ANT 13.311 But here one may take occasion to wonder at one Judas,
who was of the sect of the Essenes, and who never missed the truth in
his predictions; for this man, when he saw Antigonas passing by the
temple, cried to his companions and friends, who abode with him as his
scholars, in order to learn the art of foretelling things to come.
ANT 13.312 "That it was good for him to die now, since he had
spoken falsely about Antigonas, who is still alive, and I see him
passing by, although he had foretold that he should die at the place
called Strato's Tower that very day, while yet the place is six
hundred furlongs off where he had foretold he should be slain; and
still this day is a great part of it already past, so that he was in
danger of proving a false prophet."
ANT 13.313 As he was saying this, and that in a melancholy mood,
the news came that Antigonas was slain in a place under ground, which
itself was called also Strato's Tower or of the same name with that
Cesarea which is seated at the sea. This event put the prophet into a
great disorder.

In the story above Josephus tells the reader that there is more than
one location called "Strato's Tower". Also, it is obvious that Judas
knew that there were more than one Strato's tower (obviously he
planned the coup and there was teamwork). Salome Alexandra was
somehow involved in this plot and her husband was obviously dying
of poisoning. Alexander Janneus is not her husband, but, he is more
than likely to be her brother making her a Galilean (Samaritan). The
Hyrcanus that Herod the Great slew was a young man at this time making
him Aristobulus' son and not Alexander Janneus' son.

Do you understand my progression ... of course, you would have to read
The Antiquities of the Jews

Now, about locations, any location that Josephus mentions may have
another name. In other words, Strato's Tower is not the only pseudo
location named by Josephus.

How about Tyre?

Ant 12-233 Moreover, he built courts of greater magnitude than
ordinary, which he adorned with vastly huge gardens. And when he
brought the place to this state, he named it Tyre. This place is
between Arabia and Judea, beyond the Jordan, not far from the country
of Heshbon.

In the above Josephus tells us there is more than one Tyre. He even
gives us the location. The problem is these locations all have
separate names. One thing for sure, it is not the island that
Alexander the Great turned into a peninsula.

How about this Tyre?

Ant 08-050 Moreover, Hiram, king of Tyre, when he had heard that
Solomon succeeded to his father's kingdom, was very glad of it, for he
was a friend of David's. So he sent ambassadors to him, and saluted
him, and congratulated him on the happy state of his affairs. Upon
which Solomon sent him an epistle, the contents of which here follow:

Obviously Josephus is here talking about the Tyre that Hyrcanus built.
So, Hiram, king of Tyre is a Jew and not a Phoenician.

As the story unfolds;

Ant 08-055 The copies of these epistles remain at this day, and
are preserved not only in our books, but among the Tyrians also;
insomuch that if anyone would know the certainty about them, he may
desire of the keepers of public records of Tyre to show him, and he
will find what is there set down to agree with what we have said.

So, the Tyrians mentioned above are Jews and their Tyre is located in
the Holy Land and my guess is that it is about ten miles up creek from
Qumran.

In finishing, check out my web page (which I have not changed for a
year). LOL!

Amaleq13 · 12-27-2003, 02:05 PM

Offa,

So the "code" Thiering claims is incorporated in the text of GJohn is not actually a "code" but a specific example of a general practice in the 1st century?

The double names for people and places is not unique to Christian texts but should be assumed included by many/most/some writers of the 1st century?

offa · 12-27-2003, 02:55 PM

I am not sure how to answer that question or remark. Myself, I do not believe in a code and I am not sure if Thiering does. I try to explain that I have simply read her and she has made an impression on me.

An example of text used in scripture is comparable to my hometown (where I no longer live). This town had a beautiful natural spring called the "Blue Hole". It was a tourist attraction and there were signs "Visit the Blue Hole".

A joke was, what do girls from Castalia have that no other girls do?

The answer, of course, was "they have a Blue Hole". Now, this attraction has been closed for twenty years because the trout club wanted privacy for the millionaires that belonged to this club that hosted the "Blue Hole". Many of the kids that now graduate from this high school are not aware of the "Blue Hole" nor are the tourists because the signs have been taking down. The girls from Castalia no longer have blue holes and the joke is not funny anymore.

You have to be contemporary to the times to understand what is written. I am not contemporary to the times of the 1st century but I try to displace my contemporary views. In other words, why did they have the supernatural back the and we do not have it today?

Amaleq13 · 12-27-2003, 03:46 PM

Offa,

By "code" I meant that there is a meaning to the text other than the apparent/obvious/literal meaning.

Again, it has been a very long time since I read Thiering but I was under the impression that this renaming of places and the multiple renaming of individuals was specific to the group at Qumran. Your examples from Josephus would seem to suggest this practice was more widespread. Or is Josephus supposed to have been part of the group?

I put "code" in quotes to try to convey that I didn't mean a literal code but it certainly seems to me that Thiering is suggesting that the Gospel story must be "decoded" before it can be accurately understood.

spin · 12-27-2003, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by offa

This sort of logic is like reading ancient Egyptians of the Greek era talking about Memphis and people thinking the one in Egypt, but obviously those ancient Egyptians were talking about Memphis Tennessee. Or when people talk about Elvis they really mean Elvis Costello.

Ancient texts reporting omens often involve the misunderstanding of the prophecy in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled. This does not provide a criterion for a person to turn just any text into an extended series of metaphors. The writer of the ancient prophecy misunderstood is supposed to supply the alternative. That is part of the trope.

spin

offa · 12-27-2003, 08:05 PM

hey Spin,

I give sources. My opinions may be wrong, but I give sources. Are you just spinning?

spin · 12-27-2003, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by offa
I give sources. My opinions may be wrong, but I give sources. Are you just spinning?

I wasn't talking about sources. I was talking of going from prophecies clearly marked in a text with their surprise outcomes to the application of an inappropriately metaphorical reading of any text. You first must deal with the literal content of a text and give reasons to discount that content before looking for "deeper" significances.

spin

offa · 12-27-2003, 08:42 PM

I wasn't talking about sources. I was talking of going from prophecies clearly marked in a text with their surprise outcomes to the application of an inappropriately metaphorical reading of any text. You first must deal with the literal content of a text and give reasons to discount that content before looking for "deeper" significances.

spin

Are you a moderator? What rules do you go by? Where am I mischievious?

Please pick out something that I write and then attack it. Let us be specific. I think you are lazy.

spin · 12-27-2003, 10:20 PM

offa: Are you a moderator?

spin: no.

offa: What rules do you go by?

spin: I attempt to use the rules of logic and evidence.

offa: Where am I mischievious?

spin: Beats me.

offa: Please pick out something that I write and then attack it.

spin: I have.

offa: Let us be specific.

spin: You have cited a few examples from Josephus showing a prophecy not understood at the time because of a misunderstood reference, which Josephus tells us about, so we can understand. You gave the specifics and I commented on them. As you try to apply this same difference between what is said and what is meant in the cited prophecies to other texts, you need to justify this new application. So, I guess you need to be more specific.

offa: I think you are lazy.

spin: why?

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12-27-2003, 01:46 PM	#12
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	quote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by offa What Thiering did for me was unintentionally open my mind. For instance, I know that "soldiers" means "leader of the soldiers" so when I read Josephus I understand that the 800 men crucified by Alexander Janneus was probably just one person and that person would be the leader of 800. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do you think all of this? spin I treat Josephus as a teacher. When I read him I realize that he is telling me something that is not obvious. When I first read Josephus I did not realize this. Let me give you a for instance. ANT 13.311 But here one may take occasion to wonder at one Judas, who was of the sect of the Essenes, and who never missed the truth in his predictions; for this man, when he saw Antigonas passing by the temple, cried to his companions and friends, who abode with him as his scholars, in order to learn the art of foretelling things to come. ANT 13.312 "That it was good for him to die now, since he had spoken falsely about Antigonas, who is still alive, and I see him passing by, although he had foretold that he should die at the place called Strato's Tower that very day, while yet the place is six hundred furlongs off where he had foretold he should be slain; and still this day is a great part of it already past, so that he was in danger of proving a false prophet." ANT 13.313 As he was saying this, and that in a melancholy mood, the news came that Antigonas was slain in a place under ground, which itself was called also Strato's Tower or of the same name with that Cesarea which is seated at the sea. This event put the prophet into a great disorder. In the story above Josephus tells the reader that there is more than one location called "Strato's Tower". Also, it is obvious that Judas knew that there were more than one Strato's tower (obviously he planned the coup and there was teamwork). Salome Alexandra was somehow involved in this plot and her husband was obviously dying of poisoning. Alexander Janneus is not her husband, but, he is more than likely to be her brother making her a Galilean (Samaritan). The Hyrcanus that Herod the Great slew was a young man at this time making him Aristobulus' son and not Alexander Janneus' son. Do you understand my progression ... of course, you would have to read The Antiquities of the Jews Now, about locations, any location that Josephus mentions may have another name. In other words, Strato's Tower is not the only pseudo location named by Josephus. How about Tyre? Ant 12-233 Moreover, he built courts of greater magnitude than ordinary, which he adorned with vastly huge gardens. And when he brought the place to this state, he named it Tyre. This place is between Arabia and Judea, beyond the Jordan, not far from the country of Heshbon. In the above Josephus tells us there is more than one Tyre. He even gives us the location. The problem is these locations all have separate names. One thing for sure, it is not the island that Alexander the Great turned into a peninsula. How about this Tyre? Ant 08-050 Moreover, Hiram, king of Tyre, when he had heard that Solomon succeeded to his father's kingdom, was very glad of it, for he was a friend of David's. So he sent ambassadors to him, and saluted him, and congratulated him on the happy state of his affairs. Upon which Solomon sent him an epistle, the contents of which here follow: Obviously Josephus is here talking about the Tyre that Hyrcanus built. So, Hiram, king of Tyre is a Jew and not a Phoenician. As the story unfolds; Ant 08-055 The copies of these epistles remain at this day, and are preserved not only in our books, but among the Tyrians also; insomuch that if anyone would know the certainty about them, he may desire of the keepers of public records of Tyre to show him, and he will find what is there set down to agree with what we have said. So, the Tyrians mentioned above are Jews and their Tyre is located in the Holy Land and my guess is that it is about ten miles up creek from Qumran. In finishing, check out my web page (which I have not changed for a year). LOL!

12-27-2003, 02:05 PM	#13
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Offa, So the "code" Thiering claims is incorporated in the text of GJohn is not actually a "code" but a specific example of a general practice in the 1st century? The double names for people and places is not unique to Christian texts but should be assumed included by many/most/some writers of the 1st century?

12-27-2003, 02:55 PM	#14
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	I am not sure how to answer that question or remark. Myself, I do not believe in a code and I am not sure if Thiering does. I try to explain that I have simply read her and she has made an impression on me. An example of text used in scripture is comparable to my hometown (where I no longer live). This town had a beautiful natural spring called the "Blue Hole". It was a tourist attraction and there were signs "Visit the Blue Hole". A joke was, what do girls from Castalia have that no other girls do? The answer, of course, was "they have a Blue Hole". Now, this attraction has been closed for twenty years because the trout club wanted privacy for the millionaires that belonged to this club that hosted the "Blue Hole". Many of the kids that now graduate from this high school are not aware of the "Blue Hole" nor are the tourists because the signs have been taking down. The girls from Castalia no longer have blue holes and the joke is not funny anymore. You have to be contemporary to the times to understand what is written. I am not contemporary to the times of the 1st century but I try to displace my contemporary views. In other words, why did they have the supernatural back the and we do not have it today?

12-27-2003, 03:46 PM	#15
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	Offa, By "code" I meant that there is a meaning to the text other than the apparent/obvious/literal meaning. Again, it has been a very long time since I read Thiering but I was under the impression that this renaming of places and the multiple renaming of individuals was specific to the group at Qumran. Your examples from Josephus would seem to suggest this practice was more widespread. Or is Josephus supposed to have been part of the group? I put "code" in quotes to try to convey that I didn't mean a literal code but it certainly seems to me that Thiering is suggesting that the Gospel story must be "decoded" before it can be accurately understood.

12-27-2003, 08:05 PM	#17
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	hey Spin, I give sources. My opinions may be wrong, but I give sources. Are you just spinning?

12-27-2003, 08:42 PM	#19
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	I wasn't talking about sources. I was talking of going from prophecies clearly marked in a text with their surprise outcomes to the application of an inappropriately metaphorical reading of any text. You first must deal with the literal content of a text and give reasons to discount that content before looking for "deeper" significances. spin Are you a moderator? What rules do you go by? Where am I mischievious? Please pick out something that I write and then attack it. Let us be specific. I think you are lazy.

12-27-2003, 10:20 PM	#20
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	offa: Are you a moderator? spin: no. offa: What rules do you go by? spin: I attempt to use the rules of logic and evidence. offa: Where am I mischievious? spin: Beats me. offa: Please pick out something that I write and then attack it. spin: I have. offa: Let us be specific. spin: You have cited a few examples from Josephus showing a prophecy not understood at the time because of a misunderstood reference, which Josephus tells us about, so we can understand. You gave the specifics and I commented on them. As you try to apply this same difference between what is said and what is meant in the cited prophecies to other texts, you need to justify this new application. So, I guess you need to be more specific. offa: I think you are lazy. spin: why?

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