XKV8R

no, not copycats, but raised to hold up a particular literary tradition. if i may steal an obviously anachronistic term, they understood some language to be 'biblical'. some words carried more weight than others. so, when nt writers went to describe something, they reached into their 'sacred' vocab bag and chose words and phrases that already carried weight. as humans, we tend to describe what we see using language that we know. when possible, we attempt to use a quotation or analogy that others might understand. i thing the nt writers were attempting to do one of two things: 1) use known language to describe present events, or 2) intentionally appealing to the prophetic language with the intent of casting the present event as the fulfillment of prophecy. either way, the original statement did not foretell the later event, but it looks that way.

Geddy Lee

Then if the prophecy didnt fortell the future event, but then you say it looked that way, then how do you know that it wasnt a real historical event???

Look, im not saying it happend, but your words kind of contradict themselves...basically, you're saying the event happend according to the way it was written...well, you say they made it look that way...same difference. Well, if it looks that way, who's to say they were doing as you believe??? Is it possible that they really predicted it???

makerowner

The problem with this logic is that the only witnesses we have to this alleged event are the ones that are dependent on the OT. So the two possibilities I see for why the details match are either 1) the OT was a prophecy of the events described in the NT, or 2) the NT descriptions were based on the OT. The first possibility requires a deus ex machina, while the second is consistent with the universe as we know it. So the second is more likely.

Joan of Bark

I consider the gospels to be primarily propaganda. They were written down by Christians who were trying to convince others to believe in Jesus as the Christ. One way to accomplish this was to write that Jesus fulfilled OT prophecies, as those were the signs Jews were looking for with regards to the Messiah.

So were the gospel writers lying? More likely they felt they were accurately presenting second and third-hand oral stories in their true light. Urban legends with political bias, in other words.

Solitary Man

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NZSkep

look at it this way, say there was a prophecy that the messiah would come to your town riding 2 donkeys at once.
If you wanted to write a story claiming that one of your friends was the messiah, you would surely describe him as having rode two donkeys at once when he came to your town even if it wasn't true (so that the prophecy would appear to have been fulfilled. )

Now if there was this prophecy, but you had never heard of it, it would be a pretty masive coincidence for you to make up the 2 donkey story if it wasn't true. It would indicate that maybe it really did happen.

The point is, that the writers knew of the prophecies, and so when writing down the story would very likely embelish it with prophecy fulfillment to make it seem more convincing.

Apikorus

But in fact there is no prophecy of the messiah coming into Jerusalem riding on two animals. The problem is that the LXX mistranslates Zech 9:9, in that it does not reflect the poetic parallelism in the last couplet. Matthew's story of Jesus riding into Jerusalem on two animals is likely based on the "prophecy" in the LXX of Zechariah.

NZSkep

...which is even more evidence that the stories were written with the prophecies specifically in mind. They fucked upon this one because of a mistranslation.

Solitary Man

I wonder why then Mark has Jesus riding on a colt, while Matthew, written after Mark, had him writing on a donkey and a colt (mistranslation pointed out by Apikorus) and then John, written last, has him riding on a donkey (the actual prophecy from Zechariah)? Why wouldn't the earliest gospel, Mark, write a donkey?

dog-on

Umm, maybe "John" had a better LXX translation than did "Mark".

You have a better explanation?