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Old 03-21-2008, 05:07 PM   #121
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Looks like Pat's claim is right up there with Pete's that "The Life of Sophocles ... tells us that Sophocles served as a priest to Asclepius" and his plagiarized assertion about what appears in Michael Grant's The Rise of the Greeks.

Jeffrey
"The number of pagan deities (mostly virgin-born and done to death in some way or other in their efforts to save mankind) is so great as to be difficult to keep account of. The god Krishna in India, the god Indra in Nepal and Tibet spilt their blood for the salvation of men; Buddha said, according to Max Müller, 'Let all the sins that were in the world fall on me, that the world may be delivered;' the Chinese Tien the Holy One - 'one with God and existing with him from all eternity' - died to save the world; The Egyptian Osiris was called Savior, so was Horus; so was the Persian Mithra; so was the Greek Hercules who overcame Death though his body was consumed in the burning garment of mortality, out of which he rose into heaven. So also was the Phrygian Attis called Savior, and the Syrian Tammuz or Adonis likewise - both of whom, as we have seen, were nailed or tied to a tree, and afterwards rose again from their biers or coffins. Prometheus, the greatest and earliest benefactor of the human race, was nailed by the hands and the feet, and with arms extended, to the rocks of Mount Caucasus. Bacchus or Dionysus, born of the virgin Semele to be the Liberator of mankind (Dionysus Eleutherios as he was called) was torn to pieces, not unlike Osiris. Even in far Mexico [179] Quetzalcoatl, the Savior, was born of a virgin, was tempted, and fasted forty days, was done to death, and his second coming looked for so eagerly that (as is well known) when Cortes appeared, the Mexicans, poor things, greeted him as the returning god! In Peru and among the American Indians, North and South of the Equator, similar legends are, or were, to be found."
-- Edward Carpenter, Pagan and Christian Creeds, pp. 129, 130. http://www.edwardcarpenter.net/

Do you need more quotes?
I need the one I asked for -- i.e., Frazer's statement that Attis was nailed to a tree -- and his citation of the primary sources where this is attested.

Can you give me this or not?

Indeed, have you actually read Frazer's Golden Bough?

Jeffrey
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Old 03-21-2008, 05:33 PM   #122
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I think it was the authors of the KJB, probably The Authorized Version of the KJB of 1662, that first translated Iesus as Jesus. What evidence do you have that I am wrong?
Can you prove to us that Jesus is a translation of Jesus/Iesus?

Roger Pearse
I think the following is correct, but the sources are Christian sites, you should check it out before relying on it.

I assume that was a typo in your question. Your question is already answered in my previous reply to Ben, and I provided some cites, but just to make it more clear:

The Geneva Bible and the KJB were translations of the Latin Clementine Vulgate which always used the name Iesus for Yehoshua of Nazareth and Iesous for Yehoshua of the OT.

The Geneva Bible and the original KJV of 1611, and all subsequent printings prior to 1662, always used the name Iesus for Yehoshua of Nazareth.

The Authorized Version of the KJB (1662) always used the name Jesus for Yehoshua of Nazareth.

The translators knew that in Hebrew Yehoshua of Nazareth had the same name as the Yehoshua of the OT. The change of the initial I of Iesus to a J to form Jesus does not make sense because Yehoshua does not begin with a "gi" or "d-zh" sound.

Similarly their translation of Yehoshua of the OT from Iesous to Joshua does not make any sense for the same reason. They probably made these changes in the translation in order to reduce the confusion and to hide the embarrassing fact that the Bible is confusing.
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Old 03-21-2008, 05:52 PM   #123
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"The number of pagan deities (mostly virgin-born and done to death in some way or other in their efforts to save mankind) is so great as to be difficult to keep account of. The god Krishna in India, the god Indra in Nepal and Tibet spilt their blood for the salvation of men; Buddha said, according to Max Müller, 'Let all the sins that were in the world fall on me, that the world may be delivered;' the Chinese Tien the Holy One - 'one with God and existing with him from all eternity' - died to save the world; The Egyptian Osiris was called Savior, so was Horus; so was the Persian Mithra; so was the Greek Hercules who overcame Death though his body was consumed in the burning garment of mortality, out of which he rose into heaven. So also was the Phrygian Attis called Savior, and the Syrian Tammuz or Adonis likewise - both of whom, as we have seen, were nailed or tied to a tree, and afterwards rose again from their biers or coffins. Prometheus, the greatest and earliest benefactor of the human race, was nailed by the hands and the feet, and with arms extended, to the rocks of Mount Caucasus. Bacchus or Dionysus, born of the virgin Semele to be the Liberator of mankind (Dionysus Eleutherios as he was called) was torn to pieces, not unlike Osiris. Even in far Mexico [179] Quetzalcoatl, the Savior, was born of a virgin, was tempted, and fasted forty days, was done to death, and his second coming looked for so eagerly that (as is well known) when Cortes appeared, the Mexicans, poor things, greeted him as the returning god! In Peru and among the American Indians, North and South of the Equator, similar legends are, or were, to be found."
-- Edward Carpenter, Pagan and Christian Creeds, pp. 129, 130. http://www.edwardcarpenter.net/

Do you need more quotes?
I need the one I asked for -- i.e., Frazer's statement that Attis was nailed to a tree -- and his citation of the primary sources where this is attested.

Can you give me this or not?

Indeed, have you actually read Frazer's Golden Bough?

Jeffrey
Is this one good enough?

" Attys, who was called the "Only Begotten Son" and "Saviour" was worshipped by the Phrygians (who were regarded as one of the oldest races in Asia Minor). He [Attis] was represented by them as a man tied to a tree, at the foot of which was a lamb, and , without doubt also as a man nailed to the tree, or stake, for we find Lactantius making ... Appolo of Miletus ... say that: "He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but being arrested by an armed force by command of the Chaldean judges, He suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes."
--T.W. Doane, Bible Myths and their parallels in other Religions

There are lots of cites that say that Attis was nailed or hung on a tree. If this one is not good enough? I have some more, but this is off topic.

Mark does not say that Jesus was nailed. Why do you think you need so many citations that Attis was nailed?
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:01 PM   #124
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" Attys, who was called the "Only Begotten Son" and "Saviour" was worshipped by the Phrygians (who were regarded as one of the oldest races in Asia Minor). He [Attis] was represented by them as a man tied to a tree, at the foot of which was a lamb, and , without doubt also as a man nailed to the tree, or stake, for we find Lactantius making ... Appolo of Miletus ... say that: "He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but being arrested by an armed force by command of the Chaldean judges, He suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes."
--T.W. Doane, Bible Myths and their parallels in other Religions

There are lots of cites that say that Attis was nailed or hung on a tree. Is this one good enough? I have some more, but this is off topic.
Am I right in thinking that the only source you're actually consulting is The Christ Conspiracy?
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:20 PM   #125
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Default Philo Judaeus: On Ascetics

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but the following ...

Philo describes the therapeutae of Egypt as ascetics.

Does he? Where specifically? Please give me the exact Philonic reference.
030 CE -- Philo Judaeus: On Ascetics
SOURCE: Ancient History Sourcebook

Quote:
Thatcher Introduction

As is evident from the writings of Seneca, Epictetus and others, philosophy in the West ceased to be purely speculative, and dealt with moral and religious questions. This tendency toward the moral and religious was strengthened by the spread of Jewish and Christian teachings, together with the development of the Neo-Platonists toward mysticism, and the consequent mingling of western and eastern thought. Philo Judaeus lived in Alexandria, Egypt, from 20 B.C. to 40 A.D. He was a Jew in religion but a Greek in philosophy, and did much to promote this fusion of thought. The selection below describes the pre-Christian ascetics of Egypt. lt is important because it shows that asceticism was common in the deserts of Egypt even before the Christian monks and thus by no means peculiarly Christian.

Philo Judaeus: On Ascetics

I.

Having mentioned the Essenes, who in all respects selected for their admiration and for their especial adoption the practical course of life, and who excel in all, or what perhaps may be a less unpopular and invidious thing to say, in most of its parts, I will now proceed, in the regular order of my subject, to speak of those who have embraced the speculative life, and I will say what appears to me to be desirable to be said on the subject, not drawing any fictitious statements from my own head for the sake of improving the appearance of that side of the question which nearly all poets and essayists are much accustomed to do in the scarcity of good actions to extol, but with the greatest simplicity adhering strictly to the truth itself, to which I know well that even the most eloquent men do not keep close in their speeches.

Nevertheless we must make the endeavor and labor to attain to this virtue; for it is not right that the greatness of the virtue of the men should be a cause of silence to those who do not think it right that anything which is creditable should be suppressed in silence; but the deliberate intention of the philosopher is at once displayed from the appellation given to them: for with strict regard to etymology, they are called therapeutae and therapeutrides, either because they profess an art of medicine more excellent than that in general use in cities (for that only heals bodies, but the other heals souls which are under the mastery of terrible and almost incurable diseases, which pleasures and appetites, fears and griefs, and covetousness, and follies, and injustice, and all the rest of the innumerable multitude of other passions and vices, have inflicted upon them), or else because they have been instructed by nature and the sacred laws to serve the living God, who is superior to the good, and more simple than the one, and more ancient than the unity with whom, however, who is there of those who profess piety that we can possibly compare? Can we compare those who honor the elements, earth, water, air, and fire? to whom different nations have given names, calling fire Hephaestus, I imagine because of its kindling, and the air Hera, I imagine because of its being raised up, and raised aloft to a great height, and water Poseidon, probably because of its being drinkable, and the earth Demeter because it appears to be the mother of all plants and of all animals.

II.

But since these men infect not only their fellow countrymen, but all that come near them with folly, let them remain uncovered, being mutilated in the most indispensable of all the outward senses, namely, sight. I am speaking here, not of the sight of the body, but of that of the soul, by which alone truth and falsehood are distinguished from one another. But the therapeutic sect of mankind, being continually taught to see without interruption, may well aim at obtaining a sight of the living God, and may pass by the sun, which is visible to the outward sense, and never leave this order which conducts to perfect happiness. But they who apply themselves to this kind of worship, not because they are influenced to do so by custom, nor by the advice or recommendation of any particular persons, but because they are carried away by a certain heavenly love, give way to enthusiasm, behaving like so many revelers in bacchanalian or corybantian mysteries, until they see the object which they have been earnestly desiring.

Then, because of their anxious desire for an immortal and blessed existence, thinking that their mortal life has already come to an end, they leave their possessions to their sons or daughters, or perhaps to other relations, giving them up their inheritance with willing cheerfulness: and those who know no relations give their property to their companions or friends, for it followed of necessity that those who have acquired the wealth which sees, as if ready prepared for them, should be willing to surrender that wealth which is blind to those who themselves also are still blind in their minds.

When, therefore, men abandon their property without being influenced by any predominant attraction, they flee without even turning their heads back again, deserting their brethren, their children, their wives, their parents, their numerous families, their affectionate bands of companions, their native lands in which they have been born and brought up, though long familiarity is a most attractive bond, and one very well able to allure any one. And they depart, not to another city as those do who entreat to be purchased from those who at present possess them, being either unfortunate or else worthless servants, and as such seeking a change of masters rather than endeavoring to procure freedom (for every city, even that which is under the happiest laws, is full of indescribable tumults, and disorders, and calamities, which no one would submit to who had been even for a moment under the influence of wisdom), but they take up their abode outside of walls, or gardens, or solitary lands, seeking for a desert place, not because of any ill-natured misanthropy to which they have learned to devote themselves, but because of the associations with people of wholly dissimilar dispositions to which they would otherwise be compelled, and which they know to be unprofitable and mischievous.

III.

Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt, in every one of the districts, or nomes, as they are called, and especially around Alexandria; and from all quarters those who are the best of these therapeutae proceed on their pilgrimage to some most suitable place as if it were their country, which is beyond the Maereotic lake, lying in a somewhat level plain a little raised above the rest, being suitable for their purpose by reason of its safety and also of the fine temperature of the air.

For the houses built in the fields and the villages which surround it on all sides give it safety; and the admirable temperature of the air proceeds from the continual breezes which come from the lake which falls into the sea, and also from the sea itself in the neighborhood, the breezes from the sea being light, and those which proceed from the lake which falls into the sea being heavy, the mixture of which produces a most healthy atmosphere.

But the houses of these men thus congregated together are very plain, just giving shelter in respect of the two things most important to be provided against, the heat of the sun, and the cold from the open air; and they did not live near to one another as men do in cities, for immediate neighborhood to others would be a troublesome and unpleasant thing to men who have conceived an admiration for, and have determined to devote themselves to, solitude; and, on the other hand, they did not live very far from one another on account of the fellowship which they desire to cultivate, and because of the desirableness of being able to assist one another if they should be attacked by robbers.

And in every house there is a sacred shrine which is called the holy place, and the house in which they retire by themselves and perform all the mysteries of a holy life, bringing in nothing, neither meat, nor drink, nor anything else which is indispensable towards supplying the necessities of the body, but studying in that place the laws and the sacred oracles of God enunciated by the holy prophets, and hymns, and psalms, and all kinds of other things by reason of which knowledge and piety are increased and brought to perfection.

Therefore they always retain an imperishable recollection of God, so that not even in their dreams is any other subject ever presented to their eyes except the beauty of the divine virtues and of the divine powers. Therefore many persons speak in their sleep, divulging and publishing the celebrated doctrines of the sacred philosophy. And they are accustomed to pray twice a day, at morning and at evening; when the sun is rising entreating God that the happiness of the coming day may be real happiness, so that their minds may be filled with heavenly light, and when the sun is setting they pray that their soul, being entirely lightened and relieved of the burden of the outward senses, and of the appropriate object of these outward senses, may be able to trace out trust existing in its own consistory and council chamber. And the interval between morning and evening is by them devoted wholly to meditation on and to practice virtue, for they take up the sacred scriptures and philosophy concerning them, investigating the allegories as symbols of some secret meaning of nature, intended to be conveyed in those figurative expressions.

They have also writings of ancient men, who having been the founders of one sect or another, have left behind them many memorials of the allegorical system of writing and explanation, whom they take as a kind of model, and imitate the general fashion of their sect; so that they do not occupy themselves solely in contemplation, but they likewise compose psalms and hymns to God in every kind of meter and melody imaginable, which they of necessity arrange in more dignified rhythm. Therefore, during six days, each of these individuals, retiring into solitude by himself, philosophizes by himself in one of the places called monasteries, never going outside the threshold of the outer court, and indeed never even looking out.

But on the seventh day they all come together as if to meet in a sacred assembly, and they sit down in order according to their ages with all becoming gravity, keeping their hands inside their garments, having their right hand between their chest and their dress, and the left hand down by their side, close to their flank; and then the eldest of them who has the most profound learning in their doctrines comes forward and speaks with steadfast look and with steadfast voice, with great powers of reasoning, and great prudence, not making an exhibition of his oratorical powers like the rhetoricians of old, or the sophists of the present day, but investigating with great pains, and explaining with minute accuracy the precise meaning of the laws, which sits, not indeed at the tips of their ears, but penetrates through their hearing into the soul, and remains there lastingly; and all the rest listen in silence to the praises which he bestows upon the law, showing their assent only by nods of the head, or the eager look of the eyes.

And this common holy place to which they all come together on the seventh day is a twofold circuit, being separated partly into the apartment of the men, and partly into a chamber for the women, for women also, in accordance with the usual fashion there, form a part of the audience, having the same feelings of admiration as the men, and having adopted the same sect with equal deliberation and decision; and the wall which is between the houses rises from the ground three or four cubits upwards, like a battlement, and the upper portion rises upwards to the roof without any opening. on two accounts; first of all, in order that the modesty which is so becoming to the female sex may be preserved, and secondly, that the women may be easily able to comprehend what is said, being seated within earshot, since there is then nothing which can possibly intercept the voice of him who is speaking.

IV.

And these expounders of the law, having first of all laid down temperance as a sort of foundation for the soul to rest upon, proceed to build up other virtues on this foundation, and no one of them may take any meat or drink before the setting of the sun, since they judge that the work of philosophizing is one which is worthy of the light, but that the care of the necessities of the body is suitable only to darkness, on which account they appropriate the day to the one occupation, and a brief portion of the night to the other; and some men, in whom there is implanted a more fervent desire of knowledge, can endure to cherish a recollection of their food for three days without even tasting it, and some men are so delighted, and enjoy themselves so exceedingly when regaled by wisdom which supplies them with her doctrines in all possible wealth and abundance, that they can even hold out twice as great a length of time, and will scarcely at the end of six days taste even necessary food, being accustomed, as they say that grasshoppers are, to feed on air, their song as I imagine, making their scarcity tolerable to them.

And they, looking upon the seventh day as one of perfect holiness and a most complete festival, have thought it worthy of a most especial honor, and on it, after taking due care of their soul, they tend their bodies also, giving them, just as they do to their cattle, a complete rest from their continual labors; and they eat nothing of a costly character, but plain bread and a seasoning of salt, which the more luxurious of them do further season with hyssop; and their drink is water from the spring; for they oppose those feelings which nature has made mistresses of the human race, namely, hunger and thirst, giving them nothing to flatter or humor them, but only such useful things as it is not possible to exist without. On this account they eat only so far as not to be hungry, and they drink just enough to escape from thirst, avoiding all satiety, as an enemy of and a plotter against both soul and body.

And there are two kinds of covering, one raiment and the other a house: we have already spoken of their houses, that they are not decorated with any ornaments, but run up in a hurry, being only made to answer such purposes as are absolutely necessary; and in like manner their raiment is of the most ordinary description, just stout enough to ward off cold and heat, being a cloak of some shaggy hide for winter, and a thin mantle or linen shawl in the summer; for in short they practice entire simplicity, looking upon falsehood as the foundation of pride, but truth is the origin of simplicity, and upon truth and falsehood as standing in the light of fountains, for from falsehood proceeds every variety of evil and wickedness, and from truth there flows every imaginable abundance of good things both human and divine.

From: Oliver J. Thatcher, ed., The Library of Original Sources
(Milwaukee: University Research Extension Co., 1907),
Vol. III: The Roman World, pp. 355-369
See also the following entry at The Therapeutae of Antiquity .


054 CE to 324 CE -- COINAGE of the Roman Emperors

SOURCE: Asclepius: The God of Medicine -
By Gerald D. Hart: (p.177)
Quote:
Indicates that the forty six of the Roman emperor for the period of almost three centuries depicted on their minted coins the figure of Asclepius or Salus. This represents a fairly extensive and persistent tradition. Notably the practice ceases in the year 324 CE, at which time the military supremacist Constantine secured the entire Roman empire as his own.
So I do not think any of this is trivial with respect to explicating the chronology of the invention of the fiction of christian origins.

Best wishes



Pete Brown
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:32 PM   #126
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[QUOTE=patcleaver;5224002]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post

I need the one I asked for -- i.e., Frazer's statement that Attis was nailed to a tree -- and his citation of the primary sources where this is attested.

Can you give me this or not?

Indeed, have you actually read Frazer's Golden Bough?

Jeffrey
Quote:
Is this one good enough?
N. It's not. It's not Frazer.

Quote:
" Attys, who was called the "Only Begotten Son" and "Saviour" was worshipped by the Phrygians (who were regarded as one of the oldest races in Asia Minor).
Primary source please. In what ancient text(s) is this "calling" attested? Am I correct in thinking that you don't know?

Quote:
He [Attis] was represented by them as a man tied to a tree, at the foot of which was a lamb, and , without doubt also as a man nailed to the tree, or stake, for we find Lactantius making ... Appolo of Miletus ... say that: "He was a mortal according to the flesh; wise in miraculous works; but being arrested by an armed force by command of the Chaldean judges, He suffered a death made bitter with nails and stakes."
Where specifically in Lactantius can this quotation of Apollo of Meletus be found? Do you know? Have you checked what your source says is there with what is actually there?

Quote:
There are lots of cites that say that Attis was nailed or hung on a tree. If this one is not good enough? I have some more, but this is off topic.
It's not off topic. But I want the Frazer quote and the primary sources that your "authorities" base their claims about Attis on.

Do you have any idea what these are, yes or no?

Quote:
Mark does not say that Jesus was nailed.
Nor apparently does any primary source vis a vis Attis.

Quote:
Why do you think you need so many citations that Attis was nailed?
I don't need many. I need one. Frazer. Are you going to supply it or not?

And I also need you to answer the question of whetrher you've actually read the Golden Bough.
Jeffrey
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:44 PM   #127
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Does he? Where specifically? Please give me the exact Philonic reference.
030 CE -- Philo Judaeus: On Ascetics
SOURCE: Ancient History Sourcebook
Pete, when I ask for a citation from Philo, I'm asking for the tile of a book of his and the section and line in that book in which it appears.

Do you know where specifically in the works of Philo this "quote" you give from the Ancient History Source Book can be found, yes or no?
054 CE to 324 CE -- COINAGE of the Roman Emperors

Quote:
SOURCE: Asclepius: The God of Medicine -
By Gerald D. Hart: (p.177)
Quote:
Indicates that the forty six of the Roman emperor for the period of almost three centuries depicted on their minted coins the figure of Asclepius or Salus. This represents a fairly extensive and persistent tradition. Notably the practice ceases in the year 324 CE, at which time the military supremacist Constantine secured the entire Roman empire as his own.
So I do not think any of this is trivial with respect to explicating the chronology of the invention of the fiction of christian origins.
But that as it may be, what it doesn't show is that the therapeutae of Asclepius were ascetics or that you have any primary evidence that they were.

Jeffrey
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:46 PM   #128
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Default the pagan priesthood: priest, prophet, oracle, physician, where is this leading?

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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman View Post

The head priest of Asclepius is described by Eusebius as "an unseen inmate, neither demon nor god, but rather a deceiver of souls, who had seduced mankind for so long a time through various ages."

Quote:
Originally Posted by EUSEBIUS
In prompt obedience to this command, a band of soldiers laid this building, the admiration of noble philosophers, prostrate in the dust, together with its unseen inmate, neither demon nor god, but rather a deceiver of souls, who had seduced mankind for so long a time through various ages.
Where specifically in this passage is the word "priest" used and what specifically indicates within in it that the "unseen inmate" referred to here is a priest of Asclepius?

Would it be more appropriate then to refer to the
publically executed prophet of Asclepius?
You tell me. And tell me too where we can find in the primary literature any reference to a prophet of Asclepius, let alone that Asclepius had prophets. Sloppier and sloppier, Pete. Jeffrey

Dear Jeffrey,

If the terminology of the word prophet is good enough for Robin Lane-Fox, then it shall suffice for my needs for the present. If you feel incenced at this behaviour, I understand you have Lane-Fox's email address, and can operate a personal computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLF
Persecution of the Old Religions

p.666:

"The postscript to his Oration at Antioch was to be rather more robust:
torture of pagans "in authority in the city" so that they admitted religious fraud.


p.671: The list of pagan sites to have suffered under Constantine:

Mambre: a site of great holiness in the Hebrew testament
Jerusalem: shrine of Aphrodite, stood on the site of the crucifixion and sepulchre.
Aphaca: an offensive Phoenician centre of sacred prostitution.
Didyma: Christians seized a prophet of Apollo and had him tortured.
Antioch: Christians seized a prophet of Apollo and had him tortured.
Aigai, in Cilicia: christians raised the shrine of Asclepius.

p.672:
In the early 340's, we find the first surviving Christian texts which asks for something more, the total intolerance of pagan worship." [FN:25] - Firmicus, De Errore 16.4

FOX: "Why were these latter shrines singled out so promptly?

(1) At Aigai, the pagan wise man Apollonius was believed to have "turned the temple into an Academy": this temple, or a nearby shrine, had been honoured
with a fine pagan inscription in honour of "godlike" Apollonius, perhaps as recently as the reign of Diocletian. (See the ADANA inscription)

(2) Porphyry had compiled books of Philosophy from Oracles which publicised texts from Didyma.

(3) At Antioch, prophets were duly tortured and obliged to confess "fraud". These reprisals are the counterpart to two written works by Eusebius, his polemic against the books on Apollonius and his "Demonstrations of the Gospel," which disproved Apollo's oracles by quoting them against themselves.


p.673:
"Constantine, said Eusebius, sent his emmisaries into
"every pagan temple's recess and every gloomy cave." [FN:28] - Eus., V.C. 3.57.4

"Intolerance had never been rooted in the long history
of pagan and religious thought. After Constantine,
many pagans could still extend to the new worship
a tolerance which its exclusivity refused to extend to them."

"Eusebius tells how his [Constantine's] agents broke up divine statues
and exhibited their stuffing as mere rubbish."
[FN:30] - Eus., V.C. 3.54.6

p.674: The age of Constantine has been aptly described as
"age of hiatus": we can carry this notion to our major theme,
the "presence of the gods".

p.679: "In the early fourth century, two aging Christian authors
had shown possible ways of "defusing" the words of the pagan gods.
Eusebius had dismissed them as demonic and used them to refute their authors,
whereas Lactantius had quoted them with Christian improvements
and claimed them as proofs of the Christian faith ... In the first
flush of the "new empire", it must have been on the christians' initiative
that torture was applied to Apollo's prophet at Didyma and to others at Antioch,
"people taken from the magistrates of the city".
They were not humble, ignorant people, Eusebius asserted proudly:
they were people of "wonderful and noble philosophy",
at Antioch civic notables, at Didyma a "prophet and philosopher",
last of the long line of cultured voices who had kept philosophy
running in oracles, the voices of Polites, Theophilus, Macer and
the rest. [FN:48] - Eus. P. Ev. 4.135C-136A.

[b]Philosophic oracles had begun when Apollo's wisdom
advanced with the culture of the prophets.
They ended when christians tortured the prophets.
who had recently helped to torture them too.
NOTE - DISPUTED is this last line by Fox!

The Eusebian fiction postulate defends the position that the persecution of christians in the time before Constantine was Constantinian fiction, and that there were no christians on the planet before the year 312 CE. The christian persecutions are literary fictions borrowing historical pathos from the historical persecutions of the Manichaeans, which the christians actually continued for hundreds of years into the 5th (and 6th?) centuries. Many Manichaeans writings were actually burnt by Bishops before the doors of major basilicas in the fifth century.


Best wishes,


Pete Brown
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Old 03-21-2008, 06:50 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patcleaver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post

Can you prove to us that Jesus is a translation of Jesus/Iesus?

Roger Pearse
I think the following is correct, but the sources are Christian sites, you should check it out before relying on it.

I assume that was a typo in your question. Your question is already answered in my previous reply to Ben, and I provided some cites, but just to make it more clear:

The Geneva Bible and the KJB were translations of the Latin Clementine Vulgate
The KJB is a translation of the Vulgate??? Have you ever read the preface to the KJV?

Quote:
which always used the name Iesus for Yehoshua of Nazareth and Iesous for Yehoshua of the OT.
Were they basing their translations on a Hebrew or Aramaic version of the NT?

Quote:
The Geneva Bible and the original KJV of 1611, and all subsequent printings prior to 1662, always used the name Iesus for Yehoshua of Nazareth.
They do? The KJV of 1611 is online. Would you care to prove your point by pointing us to where this occurs in that version and explaining away what we see here for example?

BTW, do you read either Hebrew, Latin, or Greek?

Jeffrey
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Old 03-21-2008, 07:06 PM   #130
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Is there some significance to the distinction between Iesus and Jesus?

Original KJV Mark 1:1

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God

Mark 1:1 at jesusislord agrees.

VERUS

Mark 1:1

The beginning of the Gospel of Iesus Christ, the Sonne of God,

Orthography changes. We no longer write sonne, and we no longer use an initial i as a consonant.
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