DaBuster

That’s a good question, although at some point it seems that Christianity and the Roman Empire became essentially one and the same. Or, in other words, to paraphrase Mr. Jones (or perhaps it was one of his erstwhile compatriots), “It's a fair cop, but (Roman) society is to blame.”

StudentofTruth

There are a lot more dynamics to look at over whether a specific civilization was a developing vibrant culture or not. Rome had the advantage of secure cities, with secure food production, ect. This kind of security is necessary for the development of a more enlightened culture. If your engineers are spending hours in the field tilling weeds, so that they can eat, they are doing precious little engineering.

Rome developed the enlightened structure that it had due to the Roman Army, and due to the organization of the Roman culture. The army kept the enemy from stealing your food, while providing slaves in the form of captives to handle menial work. The roads were built to allow the armies to move fast, but also enabled goods to move faster as well --- improved trade. More goods allow more people to live in a small area --- now they need water. Aquaducts provide water, now allowing more people access to a better lifestyle, cleaner conditions, and most importantly, the ability for some people to specialize within the culture. Specialists begin to invent things and perpetrate technology.... and so on.

Here in the US (where I live)... imagine cutting off the water and groceries. People would use up their stores, and then would begin fighting over what was left. Large swaths of population would die, without the food distribution infrastructure we have, everyone would be reduced to trying to find their own food.... limiting any other occupation. Eventually, you would see feudalism re-develop.

I am not saying that christianity did not have a hand in prolonging the Dark Ages, however. Once they reached the pinacle of their power.... they were desperate to keep that power.... and keeping the masses ignorant, and beholden to the state via fear is one way to do it. Back then, it was "heresy".... today, it is "terrorism".

The conclusion that chrisianity itself was the reason for the dark ages is not only one sided... it ignores a lot of the facts involved.

Finally, those that think that Rome's baths were only for the elite should learn some latin, and read some of the graffiti that has been found on Roman bath house walls (Romans loved graffiti.....LOL) I remember one where a baker's wife stated that the sponge stick was better than her husband in all ways.... "for his loaves are small, even the one he was born with... and not so quick to wilt and wither"

On a further note, Rome also had a very extensive sewer system... a portion of it is still in use today:
In the words of Frontius (one of the Romans in charge of the aquaducts and sewers in 100 AD :
“The results of the great number of
reservoirs, works, fountains and water basins
can be seen in the improved health of Rome.
The city looks cleaner, and the causes of the
unhealthy air which gave Rome a bad name
amongst the people in the past are now
removed.
Compare such important engineering works
with the idle pyramids and the useless
though famous buildings of the Greeks.”

John

Potoooooooo

How so?

bacht

Well, don't forget about the Huns & Vandals & Goths & Muslims & Vikings, they gave Europe a hard time for centuries. The Church was one of the only institutions still functioning.

The church's temporal power was probably highest after the Dark Ages, in the period when cities and monarchies were still rebuilding.

gentleexit

The need to entertain the plebs of Rome, the need to see off border tribes, these were challenges from Augustus on. Something changed to turn these dangers fatal.

By the fourth century you find men looking beyond the world they live in, looking up, contemplating heaven, not earth. Monks begin, convents begin, the finest administrators don't join army or imperial government but the church. A here-and-now religousity gives way to an other-worldly sensibility. Such an ethos and institutions prove too taxing for a fundamentally agricultural economy. Now the border tribes are no longer containable, now entertaining masses, maintaining roads is unsustainable.

Was this avoidable? Perhaps. Had the Romans become out-and-out empiricists and left the gods where they were. But they didn't and thorough empiricism had to wait for the enlightenment.

Potoooooooo

I wonder about the accuracy of that statement, I have seen photos and videos from third world countries where they do not have our standard of living and I have seen photos from the earliest days of photography and every one doesn't look sick, disfigured and scarred.