Toto

http://scripturetext.com/proverbs/1-17.htm

Sheshbazzar

בעל כנף The truth of that remains to be seen. Did I indeed misunderstand?
And are you sincerely asking forgiveness?

In Post #11 above you abused the NT text to mock my previous post about Ninshubur and Inanna.
Now you have addressed me as 'ba`al'; ...Are you then conceding that I am -בעל הכנף - ?
Or rather expressing further mockery and contempt, as your parentheses appears to indicate?

That remains to be seen. Does the shoe fit?
Are you one נצב and ישר, one אמן among the אמונים?

Sheshbazzar

כי־חנם מזרה הרשת בעיני כל־בעל כנף׃
What it means depends entirely upon whom is reading it, and how they interpret the words.
As a 'dark saying of old' there is no adequate nor correct English translation, although all English Bibles do have their deficient renderings.

If they don't 'receive' THE Word, they will never correctly understand or interpret the words of the 'wind' talkers.
And even if they could somewhat understand our words, No Gileadite Sentinel would ever be fooled by their speech.

Chili

Yet half the words will do if the meaning expressed is prior to the reader by nature, which is exactly what makes manna different from the word from God as opposed to manna being the word of God that only testifies to the word from God (Jn.5:39).

Sheshbazzar

Thank you Chili, that is a very astute observation.
The greater bulk of Biblical texts exist only for the sake of outsiders, who need a multitude of examples to even begin to grasp ideas and idioms that are naturally intuitive to the native Hebrew language, culture, and religion.
And for 'by nature' we have the example of father Abraham, who was not born a 'Hebrew' but became a 'Hebrew' by what he believed and what he did, making him the 'father of a multitude', many of whom likewise did not begin life as 'Hebrews', but were transformed even as he was.

MarkA

The whole three days and nights before resurrection may simply be a reflection of folklore about when someone is actually dead and not simply appearing to be so.

Before the advent of modern techniques to determine when death has actually occured, there are countless cases of people reviving, sometimes to the horror of the witnesses. As a general rule of thumb if someone appears to be dead after three days and nights, then the assumption is they probably are really dead and not in a coma.

Dressing this knowledge or advice up in stories about gods made it easier to disseminate and have accepted by the majority of people. Of course as time passed the theological message became dominant, as would naturally happen if the stories were about divinities, and we have a religious instead of a practicle story.

jgreen44

Yes. I am sincerely asking forgiveness. I quoted Isaiah (yes, to allude to your "scarlet thread" comment) but more so to indicate that it will eventually become evident that my intentions are not malicious. Post #11 was somewhat mocking but this occurred primarily because the words of your argument fit the counter argument so well. I am squaring with you. I did not intend to offend or anger you. And please review my previous post. I did not place parentheses around the word, "ba'al" (and I have not performed a later edit on the post). Am I conceding that you are "a wing"? If you want to be a wing, I concede that you are a wing.:notworthy:

Sheshbazzar

Ah, a communications breakdown.
I admit to being a bit 'touchy' about the NT subject of The Three Days and Three Nights, it being within an area of study that I have been deeply involved in for over 30 years, and over which I have endured much.
I erred in using the word 'parentheses' to indicate the (....) placed around
"(which would, of course, be impossible, given your obvious prowess and superiority)".
Was I wrong in perceiving a touch sarcasm here ?
Anyway, my error belies the premise of it being impossible. Being human, I am, like all other humans, by nature inclined to screw up sometimes. So the plea for forgiveness is mutual, and I ask your pardon.
I do not want to be a 'wing', if you really think it is that I was attempting to convey. The idiom כנף as I believe you are aware, has a range of interrelated meanings and applications.
I tend to see and interpret such usages in line with the subjects of the precise measurements, of borders, corners, volume, 'pattern' and various 'Standard' and unchanging laws of Geometry.
Thus to me, by a reading that is consistent with my conscience, to be a "Master of the Wing" is no reference to any common bird, but to a "Master of Corners" that is, one skilled in the use of the building line, the plummet, level, and measuring 'reed'. One able to visualize, 'see' and build to a specified pattern, 'Upright' and 'foursquare', dimensionally, geometrically, and ethically without any acceptance of 'crookedness' nor compromise.

Perhaps a little obscure to grasp by anyone who has not devoted some considerable time to thought of, and calculation of the various measurements and Standards that are mentioned within the Biblical texts.

But on the subject of 'wings', consider the 'wing' span of the Cherubim on the Ark. I'll dictate nothing, but only query as to what you can visualise when you read the description. Are the five cubits of the left 'wing' of the same length as the five cubits of the right wing?
And what of everything else that is measured? Equal measures conforming to a Standard? or unequal measures unto confusion?
What is "a perfect and a just measure"?

jgreen44

I am new here so I don't yet know the issues and agendas of individual posters. I did not mean to touch any raw nerves.No. But as someone once said, "50% of all humor is truth" and it is obvious that you know of what you speak.No need to go out and get a ram without defect from the flock (Lev 5:17-19). I feel that I am the only person in this dialogue who has trespassed but, OK, you hereby receive a full pardon.Yes. That's one thing I love about the language of scripture. It is imprecise precisely because it it so filled with meaning ...or open to interpretation.'Crookedness' requires an agenda other than the simple quest for truth. For example, does one begin with an a priori belief in the exclusive sacredness of the books of the Bible? Conversely, does one begin with an a priori belief in the utter irrelevance of the books of the Bible? Either extreme involves 'crookedness'.
Are the five cubits of the left 'wing' of the same length as the five cubits of the right wing?

Yes. For a very good (symbolic) reason.

"Philo indicates that one of the Cherubic figures was representative of the male principle (Elohim) and the other, of the female principle (Yahweh).

Philo lists the Elohim principle as possessing the qualities of the Father, husband, begetter, creator, reason, goodness, peaceableness, gentleness, beneficence: symbolised by Cherub "A."

The Yahweh principle possesses the qualities of Mother, wife, bearer, nurturer, wisdom (knowledge, learning, education), sovereignty (kingly power), legislative, chastising, correcting: symbolised by Cherub "B."

This information from Philo aligns to Jewish thoughtform for the mother is not only the bearer of children, and nurturer and educator of the child, but she is the establisher and maintainer of order in the home. She is the one who wields the legislative, chastising and correcting powers -- in fact all the attributes of power, authority and sovereignty.

The father is, in a contrasted and complementive way, the begetter and creator, possessing the soft qualities of gentleness, goodness and compassion. As it is written: "Like as a father has compassion upon his children, so has God compassion."

http://www.biblicalresearchinstitute...tures/lec9.htm

What is "a perfect and a just measure"? It comes via our equal application of the male and female principles, Thinking and Feeling, Logos and Eros, Yang and Yin, Geburah and Hesed. In all of your analytical comments about measurements, you touched on it yourself:

"by a reading that is consistent with my conscience"

Jeremiah 31:33

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Chili

If Jonah equals the burial of Jesus the burial of Jesus also equals the sign of Jonah and if the sign of Jonah is the only sign given it will be the only way for every 'John' to get to heaven.

Now notice that Jonah was running away from the Lord his time (second full circle) and was on a paid fair = rightfully there when the storm set in = guilty of sin as Hebrew bearing down under the cross. Then while asleep in the bottom of the ship this 'John' was asked to give an account of himself because there was just one too many on board this life-houseboat to get to Ninevah and then he confessed to the authorities that he worshiped the God of heaven who made the sea and the dry land = no evangelist had dragged him there = "it is finished" (and the sea is the subconscious mind and the dry land is the conscious mind from Gen. 1). Then, when they thew him into the sea the storm subsided = vacate the conscious mind and the burial began into the netherworld for three days and three nights so that the 'inner man' could be cleansed of all determinate forces while the conscious mind remained vacant in a voodoo kind of way.

Now go look at Matthew 24:62-65 where the chief priest told Pilate to make sure that he would be there for three days and three nights lest he be raised premature and become the final imposter who would be worse than the first . . . to say that Jesus was an imposter and would go back to Galilee and there be the cause of enduring storm at sea (Rev.14:11 = no rest by night or by day = hell on earth). Jesus then must be an imposter who must die for [generic] John (?) to be the insurrectionist and fully supplant Jesus the crucifed.

I think it may be important to note that the second evangelist (as I called it here) is religion iself: cf, "father into the hands I commit myself" vs. "it is finished" . . . which then is already a foreshadow that he would rise premature and be the 'eagle with with clipped wings in Galilee' = the wolf to nurse the lamb.