Helpmabob

Hi Johnny - I don’t think we can necessarily compare man’s actions to those of God in this hypothetical situation. God has sent His only Son to die to save us – we do not deserve that, and we certainly can’t ask for more.Those that follow God find that He can be trusted. We don't always understand; that is part of faith.

I assume you mean reason to say that He cannot therefore exist. But I disagree - christians believe on the basis of what has been revealed in the Bbile, visually on the planet and spiritually.

God knows that not all men will turn to Him. But consider the Prodigal Son, and note the reaction to those that do - "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent" [Luke15:7]
How then would you stand face to face before Him, given that He abhors sin? How would your explanation to God go Johnny?By His grace He has described plenty – in the Bible. Knowledge of God’s mind and ‘explanations’ necessarily remain beyond us.

Hi Doug - There is sufficient food for all here, but any that refuse to eat would surely starve.

Hi Diogenes - There are physical laws, which apply universally and cannot be broken. In a similar way there are moral laws (we know when we have done wrong), which should not be broken, but as a result of ‘The Fall’ can be. Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection was required to offer man a way out.

Sven

This is all you've got as a reply to me pointing out that you ignore evidence and facts?

BruceWane

You're contradicting yourself.

If Johnny is making it 'abundantly clear', by analyzing evidence you are able to discern who does and does not 'understand the mind of god'; thus you are claiming that you do understand.

But then you say that 'we' never can.

If you don't understand the mind of god, you have no basis to judge whether or not anyone else does.

So either

a)you are claiming to understand the mind of god or
b)you are attempting to refute something only because the idea does not mesh with your own ideaology - you have no actual argument, so you respond with a purely emotional, knee-jerk reaction.

I'm not implying any deceitful intentions here, just pointing out that you need to think things through. Your response reeks of 100% dogma, 0% reason. And dogma don't hunt 'round here......

Diogenes the Cynic

I'm having trouble making sense out of any of this. Doesn't God decide "moral laws" all by himself? If so, then why can't he change them? What's immoral about deciding to save everybody and what moral law would it break to do it without snuffing a hippie?

Also what is "the fall" and why is that my problem? Does your god punish people for something they had nothing to do with?

BruceWane

Hmmm......So there are people who do not need to repent?

I thought we were all sinners.

But apparently not - after all, the bible says so.

Note that it does not say "persons who have already repented", it says persons who do not need to repent.

Perhaps those of us to whom god does not reveal himself are the "persons who do not need to repent".

Or maybe you're taking a book written by primitive sheep herders way too seriously.

Doug Shaver

I am not refusing to eat. What I am doing is not believing you when you say the food is there.

You are pointing to a table on the other side of 10-foot canyon and telling me that I can eat all the food on the table if I will jump the canyon, but table looks bare to me. I am not going to try to jump that canyon until you give me a good reason to believe that there is something to eat on that table.

You are also telling me that God put the food on that table and has made a rule that I must starve to death unless I believe what you tell me about the food being there and jump across that canyon.

Furthermore, considering that there is no way I can jump 10 feet, you are also asking me to believe that if I just start the jump, God will make sure I land safely on the other side.

How am I doing? Good analogy? If not, tell me what is wrong with it.

Sven

Totally ignoring that morals are quite different among different cultures and have been quite different over time. There were times and cultures where nobody knew that he did wrong when he had slaves, or sacrifies kids.

Helpmabob

Hi Sven – I don’t believe I am ignoring anything. I truly think the textual and physical evidence points to the fact that Jesus rose from the dead. There is further evidence, which is unfortunately inadmissible in a purely scholarly discussion on the Bible.Are you sure that they knew they were not doing wrong?

Hi Bruce – I must never judge - that would be futile and unacceptable. I think that those that insist that God doesn’t exist cannot appreciate God’s will. It sounds like a Catch22 situation, but I don’t make the rules.If the resurrection didn’t take place, then there would be no forgiveness of the christians’ sins.Possibly, but personally I would reckon these are hypothetical people. These verses do not claim that there are any who do not need to repent.

Hi Diogenes - Do you think that everyone should just be able to do as they please? Could we could just do away with all constitutional laws, and trust everyone to behave themselves? What if you woke one morning and gravity had disappeared – would you be happy if physical laws were negotiable; could be bought by the highest bidder and sold on for profit?The Fall = Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. If you do not feel you have sinned, and can present yourself before the living God when you die, then perhaps you have nothing to gain from the resurrection.

Hi Doug - You are better at this than me. You make it sound like a heavenly assault course. I would like to write more about but I would be in danger of straying off-topic.

madmax2976

What physical evidence exist from this supposed event that occurred 2000 years ago? I find this to be a highly dubious claim.

I do however agree that there are ancient stories that assert the claim. If ancient stories asserting dubious events are sufficient enough for you to believe them, that's up to you. I find that I require much, much more, especially for extraordinary claims like this.