Banzaibee

Heh, I wrote the troy post at "Yesterday, 03:15 AM" after getting back from a family trip. Saw the other post, thought, gah, cannot be bothered to respond to that now, linked a bad response. Tiredness + rush = mistake. Oh the irony. I admit it. I retract it.

dog-on

Why not the other way around?

Solo

The specific "water-into-wine" metaphor could have originated with John. That is quite possible. But there is a long history of association of Dionysus with ecstasy and intoxication that preceded the gospels to which the phenomena of Spirit would naturally be compared to by the early believers.

I am not saying that Jesus was derived in any sense from Dionysus. Rather I suspect that the the experience and manifestations of the Spirit (especially when communalized) would be naturally linked to Bacchic frenzy (as in the Pentecost).

BTW, manic demeanor strongly resembles intoxication. So much so, that the discovery of lithium as a mood stabilizer was specifically made based on a hypothesis of an internal "metabolic intoxicant".


Jiri

Solitary Man

I see now where you retracted it. But its not irony.

andrewcriddle

Achilles Tatius probably wrote around 150 CE (maybe later).

On the normal dating of John this would mean that any direct borrowing has to be borrowing from John by Achilles Tatius.

Andrew Criddle

dog-on

What if John (as we know it) was also written 150CE or later?

andrewcriddle

I think there is good evidence for an earlier date of John.
For example the Alogi (Alogoi) http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wace/biodic...,%20or%20Alogi in the late 2nd century apparently denied the authority of the 4th Gospel attributing it to Cerinthus (early 2nd century); this implies that by the late 2nd century even those who rejected the Gospel of John could not plausibly claim a date for it after 150 CE. ( A really late date for John would have admirably served the agenda of the Alogi, so their acceptance of an early date implies that such a date was too generally accepted to be challenged.)

Andrew Criddle

dog-on

(as we know it)...

I would look to Ireneaus, around 180, before the more finalized versions are completed...

andrewcriddle

Tatian seems to have been using a text similar to our John for his Diatessaron, independently of Irenaeus at around the same time or earlier. I think Irenaeus is rather too late for our present text of John.

However, even if FTSOA our present text of John is late 2nd century, I doubt if the narrative of changing water into wine was added as part of the late stages of redaction.

It is more likely part of a collection of miracles (the supposed Signs Gospel) which goes back to the earliest stages of the composition of John.

Andrew Criddle

dog-on

or the writer got the story from the same place Achilles Tatius did...