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Originally Posted by aa5874 Quote: Originally Posted by sschlichter the question is what the Old Testament says, not what Philo and Josephus were expecting. You just stated that their is no proof that the Jews were expecting a Messiah and then stated the war in AD 70 was proof that the Jews were expecting a Messiah. They were (as you stated) and they rejected the one that came (as prophesied). How can the Jews reject what they never expected in the first place and who they wrote nothing about. Josephus and Philo never wrote about a God called the Son of the God of Jews, born of a Virgin, who would be crucufied, resurrected and ascend through the clouds. Josephus made commentaries on the books of the prophets like Isaiah, and NEVER once stated that some-one called the son of God of the Jews would be coming to earth. And according to Trypho the Jew, Isaiah 7.14 is not prophecy about the son of the god of the Jews , but was fulfilled in Hezekiah. You have not found anything implausible, you only say it is implausible. People writing fiction is not implausible at all. The author of Matthew wrote fiction when he wrote Jesus resurrected. Fiction writers are common in any century or any place. The tense is irrelevant. You cannot use the present, past or furure tense to determine the veracity of a text. According to Hebrews, Jesus was resurrected and is sitting on the right hand of God, but whether the author used the present or past tense, this is/was just not true, or can/could not be true. Quote: Originally Posted by sschlichter It is separate accounts from separate people. You can rely on whatever accounts you like. I do not have the disdain for apologetic sources that you have. However, I was referring to other writings as witness of the lives of the apostles. ~Steve So, do you accept apologetic sources of all religions? Marcion according to Justin Martyr claimed Jesus was not the son of the God of the Jews. Do you have disdain for Marcion? He rejected the epistles to Timothy and Titus. He was an apologetic source. Cerinthus, separately, claimed Jesus was just human, not born of a virgin, and his father was Joseph and that Christ entered Jesus when he was baptised by John the Baptist. Do you have disdain for Cerinthus, he was an apologetic source? Do you accept Cerinthus? And there are multiple conflicting apologetic sources, do you accept all of them?

(Isa 11:1) A shoot will grow out of Jesse's root stock,
a bud will sprout from his roots.
(Isa 11:2) The LORD's spirit will rest on him -
a spirit that gives extraordinary wisdom,
a spirit that provides the ability to execute plans,
a spirit that produces absolute loyalty to the LORD.

(Isa 53:1) Who would have believed what we just heard?
When was the LORD's power revealed through him?
(Isa 53:2) He sprouted up like a twig before God,
like a root out of parched soil;
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention,
no special appearance that we should want to follow him.
(Isa 53:3) He was despised and rejected by people,
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him;
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant.
(Isa 53:4) But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.
(Isa 53:5) He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed.
(Isa 53:6) All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the LORD caused the sin of all of us to attack him.
(Isa 53:7) He was treated harshly and afflicted,
but he did not even open his mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughtering block,
like a sheep silent before her shearers,
he did not even open his mouth.
(Isa 53:8) He was led away after an unjust trial -
but who even cared?
Indeed, he was cut off from the land of the living;
because of the rebellion of his own people he was wounded.
(Isa 53:9) They intended to bury him with criminals,
but he ended up in a rich man's tomb,
because he had committed no violent deeds,
nor had he spoken deceitfully.
(Isa 53:10) Though the LORD desired to crush him and make him ill,
once restitution is made,
he will see descendants and enjoy long life,
and the LORD's purpose will be accomplished through him.
(Isa 53:11) Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done.
"My servant will acquit many,
for he carried their sins.

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Originally Posted by aa5874 Quote: Originally Posted by sschlichter [ Do you beleive the Jews were expecting a Messiah? Based on Josephus, Wars of the Jews 6.5.4. the Jews EXPECTED A MESSIAH at around 70CE, not at the time of Tiberius. Josephus wrote "Antiquities of the Jews", a book about the history of the Jews from CREATION to Josephus' age of 56. Josephus wrote nothing about a person called the Son of the God of the Jews or the offspring of the Holy Ghost. Based on Tacitus "Histories", the Jews EXPECTED A MESSIAH at around 70 CE. Based on Suetonius, "Lives of the Caesars", the Jews EXPECTED A MESSIAH at around 70 CE. No well-known credible non-apologetic writer or extant writings have claimed the Jews expected the Son of the God of the Jews on earth or to be the offspring of the Holy Ghost, born of a Virgin, raise the dead, transfigure, resurrect and ascend through the clouds during the days of Tiberius.

(Psa 118:22) The stone which the builders discarded
has become the cornerstone.
(Psa 118:23) This is the LORD's work.
We consider it amazing!
(Psa 118:24) This is the day the LORD has brought about.
We will be happy and rejoice in it.