Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 09-22-2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Sorry, on this board we deal with evidence. Let me know when you have evidence that demonstrates it is unambiguous.

The evidence is the milieu in which the gospels were written, where the god of thunder, Jupiter, was the predominant god in the culture. I suppose I could provide you copies of ancient texts demonstrating this, but would it matter?

If you want to simply accuse me of being a fundy for drawing ordinary conclusions, ok, I'm a fundy. You can move on with your life now.

dizzy · 09-22-2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

"Sons of Thunder" is an unambiguous reference to prodigy of Jupiter. Only a fundamentalist would deny a simple and straightforward observation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Sorry, on this board we deal with evidence. Let me know when you have evidence that demonstrates it is unambiguous.

It's the simplest explanation for the otherwise inexplicable language used by the writers. The demand for scientific rigour is just so far beyond the pale in a field that deals almost entirely with ambiguous evidence. Most things in biblical studies are decided by a best-fit approach, and this happens to be this best fit. Unless you're hiding something.

spin · 09-22-2010, 10:26 PM

I think the thunder/Jupiter connection advocates should look at the Jewish literature first and then related materials. The Jewish god is frequently connected with thunder, Ex 9:23, 1 Sam 2:10, 12:18, Job 26:14, Isa 29:6, etc. The 10 commandments were given amid thunder and lightning. God's voice is thunder (Ps 104.7). Yahweh's position in Israel was equivalent to that of Baal in Canaan -- Baal the storm god. Is there any necessary reason to seek outside the Jewish context to explain a connection with thunder?

spin

Toto · 09-22-2010, 10:47 PM

If the thunder is Yahweh, are James and John sons of Yahweh?

Justin Martyr works the Dioscuri into his First Apology:

Quote:

CHAPTER XXI -- ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST.

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; AEsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; . . .

Littlejohn · 09-22-2010, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I think the thunder/Jupiter connection advocates should look at the Jewish literature first and then related materials. The Jewish god is frequently connected with thunder, Ex 9:23, 1 Sam 2:10, 12:18, Job 26:14, Isa 29:6, etc. The 10 commandments were given amid thunder and lightning. God's voice is thunder (Ps 104.7). Yahweh's position in Israel was equivalent to that of Baal in Canaan -- Baal the storm god. Is there any necessary reason to seek outside the Jewish context to explain a connection with thunder?

spin
.

I think you are closer to the nub of the problem ... Try also see into Qumran's literature. In a text, as reported by R. Eisenman, you deals with the theme of the 'Thunder' ... ('Brontologium')

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

dizzy · 09-23-2010, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Is there any necessary reason to seek outside the Jewish context to explain a connection with thunder?

Is there any reason to prefer Jewish aetiology to pagan aetiology?

spin · 09-23-2010, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzy

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Is there any necessary reason to seek outside the Jewish context to explain a connection with thunder?

Is there any reason to prefer Jewish aetiology to pagan aetiology?

Obviously, that will depend on your perspective. If you think the christian literature has nothing to do with a Jewish background then of course you can let your imagination run riot.

spin

Solo · 09-23-2010, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

...

Sorry, on this board we deal with evidence. Let me know when you have evidence that demonstrates it is unambiguous.

What is your alternative possibility?

See eg. Michael Turton's commentary and link to Mk 3:17.

Jiri

dizzy · 09-23-2010, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Obviously, that will depend on your perspective. If you think the christian literature has nothing to do with a Jewish background then of course you can let your imagination run riot.

I don't think that at all. I think there is a dual influence from both pagan and Jewish ideas, and I'm curious why you think the latter should be shown preference in this case.

spamandham · 09-23-2010, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

See eg. Michael Turton's commentary and link to Mk 3:17.

Jiri

This is extremely speculative, and is not a valid analysis. It's the equivalent of analyzing the original Superman movie to figure out what the author of the original Superman series meant.

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09-22-2010, 10:26 PM	#43
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	I think the thunder/Jupiter connection advocates should look at the Jewish literature first and then related materials. The Jewish god is frequently connected with thunder, Ex 9:23, 1 Sam 2:10, 12:18, Job 26:14, Isa 29:6, etc. The 10 commandments were given amid thunder and lightning. God's voice is thunder (Ps 104.7). Yahweh's position in Israel was equivalent to that of Baal in Canaan -- Baal the storm god. Is there any necessary reason to seek outside the Jewish context to explain a connection with thunder? spin

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